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A Response to Your Petition on Edward Snowden

petitions.whitehouse.gov

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Re: A Response to Your Petition on Edward Snowden

#51

Post by Zikes »

cgearhart wrote: post #40
mark_l_watson wrote: post #18

I have doubts whether Edward Snowden would get a fair open trial, with a jury of his peers. Serious doubts. The entire Snowden affair reminds me very much of Daniel Ellsberg. At the time Ellsberg was condemed by many (especially in the military industrial complex) as a traitor but now I think that just about everyone believes that Ellsberg did a good thing for our country and society. I think that history will look k…

It is my understanding that the Espionage Act does not allow for an affirmative defense -- so Snowden can't claim that he was justified in releasing the materials, rather he can only dispute the facts as presented by the prosecution. But since we all pretty much agree about the facts of the case, the outcome is predictable. It would be "fair and open" in some sense, I guess, but the game is rigged. (Not to say that h…

As I tried to point out below, this is exactly the situation jury nullification was designed for.

Guilty under the law, but pardoned by a jury of his peers.

Re: A Response to Your Petition on Edward Snowden

#53

Post by hackuser »

jscheel wrote: post #2

Really, I don't know that anyone expected anything different from the current administration.

Would any administration act differently? Would any institution? Think of any institution you've been part of:

* Part of the President's role is to lead and manage the Executive Branch. He can't set the precedent for his millions of employees that blatent breaches of authority are an option.

* Like any manager, the President also is an advocate for and loyal to his subordinates. The President is only one person; the priorities of the nation depend on his effectiveness as a manager and therefore on the loyalty and support of all those in the Exectuive Branch.

* Notice that my first point referred breaches of "authority", not of law or rules. In every institution, the priority is not the rules or laws, but loyalty. That might not be good, but it's true. Egregiously break the law but be loyal to the institution and authority (e.g., torture, various corruption scandals), and you'll be protected. Be disloyal, and you'll never work in the city again and will be prosecuted if possible.

Unfortunately this is true in almost every institution, in my observations and experience (and this is hardly a novel or controversial statement). I'd be fascinated in research on this issue and its solutions, if anyone here knows about it.

Re: A Response to Your Petition on Edward Snowden

#54

Post by angrybits »

The story this tells is so stark, I don't know what else there is left to say on it.

They guy sealed his own fate when he made himself an enemy of the state, and I fear he will never get to set foot on his homeland again. One day, I hope he will be nationally recognized for his service to his people. In the meantime, the drastic divide between the aims of the government and the aims of the governed makes me grow ever more worried that we have dark days ahead of us.

Re: A Response to Your Petition on Edward Snowden

#55

Post by NullCharacter »

venomsnake wrote: post #36
Zikes wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, that certainly worked out well for Chelsea Manning [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelsea_Manning#Detention

Manning was not whistleblower.

And neither is Snowden.

After you grab a million files constituting nearly half a terabyte of top secret data and abscond with it to China (and then Russia), despite what your very best intentions may be, I don't think the title "whisteblower" is still applicable.

Re: A Response to Your Petition on Edward Snowden

#56

Post by jscheel »

hackuser wrote: post #53
jscheel wrote: post #2

Really, I don't know that anyone expected anything different from the current administration.

Would any administration act differently? Would any institution? Think of any institution you've been part of: * Part of the President's role is to lead and manage the Executive Branch. He can't set the precedent for his millions of employees that blatent breaches of authority are an option. * Like any manager, the President also is an advocate for and loyal to his subordinates. The President is only one person; the…

"Current administration" may have been the wrong phrase. I meant, whatever administration would be currently in office. It's easier for candidates to say something to the contrary, this was the only response I would have expected from any current administration.

Re: A Response to Your Petition on Edward Snowden

#57

Post by xwkd »

The response is the same as we've heard before: If you're going to engage in an act of civil disobedience, you're throwing yourself at the mercy of the justice system.

When in recent years so many programmers have had examples made of them, I can't say I have much confidence in the fair treatment of a previously relatively inconsequential man who made a monumental decision on one of the defining ethical dilemmas of our time.

There's a gauntlet of institutional embarrassment that he'd have to run through. I can't blame the guy for staying in Russia.

Re: A Response to Your Petition on Edward Snowden

#58

Post by jgrowl »

Mithaldu wrote: post #47

As a non-american it's kind of hilarious to have the american government, with all its powers, assets and resources figuratively yell at a single individual: "Come out and fight like a man!" The fact that someone thought this kind of response is appropiate in any way means one of two things: 1. They think the american populace is irrelevant and they can flip them the bird unscathed. 2. They think they have substantia…

Considering they were responding directly to people that signed the petition to have Snowden pardoned, I don't know how their intended reaction could be anything other than frustration and rage.

It's like David and Goliath. Except where Goliath is the largest, most powerful military in the world with nukes and fighter jets. David is just a pale nerdy guy with a keyboard.

Re: A Response to Your Petition on Edward Snowden

#60

Post by angrybits »

hackuser wrote: post #53
jscheel wrote: post #2

Really, I don't know that anyone expected anything different from the current administration.

Would any administration act differently? Would any institution? Think of any institution you've been part of: * Part of the President's role is to lead and manage the Executive Branch. He can't set the precedent for his millions of employees that blatent breaches of authority are an option. * Like any manager, the President also is an advocate for and loyal to his subordinates. The President is only one person; the…

Administrations often change their tunes to maintain a populist backing. They could have just said plainly, "Look, he did the crime and we are required by the rule of law to bring him to trial." and left it at that. But they didn't. They subtilely drilled home the "he's a traitor and a coward" ideas, and I am honestly not sure why. They have nothing substantial to gain by it, other than maybe to discourage future acts of subversion. Apparently, whatever the aim, they're willing to use the language of tyrants to achieve it.
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