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What It Was Like to Seek Asylum in Medieval England

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Re: What It Was Like to Seek Asylum in Medieval England

#31

Post by elektromekatron »

nkurz wrote: post #30
will_brown wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The city of San Francisco did not give Lopez-Sanchez (the alleged murderer) sanctuary in the same way as described in the article...I found your comparison to medieval sanctuary to be cheap and inflammatory. Every time I touch on an immigration related topic on HN, I swear it is the last time, but because it is so personal to me I just simply can't resist. OP falls into the classical logical error equating undocume…

I think many people use the term "illegal immigrant" not because it is pejorative but because it seems like a natural way to distinguish from "legal immigrant". And (if true) I wasn't aware that all immigration law is civil. I'd presumed that there was a parallel with "criminal trespass", but perhaps that phrase is itself a misnomer. Could you point to some sources that explain the difference between "unlawful", "ill…

Trespass is a good example. The law is split into civil and criminal law and depending on jurisdiction and sometimes the status of the land owner (i.e. military, etc), trespass can fall into either camp.

If you break criminal law, you are committing a crime and can be prosecuted and punished for that, on the other hand civil law is characterized as a dispute between two parties and the only crime you can then commit is to flout a court ruling on the matter, which may then progress into criminal law if it is serious enough, or may be referred back for yet more civil proceedings. However even if you do flout a court ruling, and the process becomes criminal, what you originally did remains civil, it is your subsequent conduct towards the court that can be judged as criminal.

Here's a good source regarding migration law in the US http://blog.chron.com/immigration/2008/04/being-undocumented...

Re: What It Was Like to Seek Asylum in Medieval England

#32

Post by ryanlol »

phaemon wrote: post #28
qmalxp wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a big 'X' in the upper right corner of the box you can click to make it go away.

Sbepvat crbcyr gb gnxr rkgen fgrcf gb ernq jung lbh'ir jevggra vf fghcvq.

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Re: What It Was Like to Seek Asylum in Medieval England

#33

Post by Amezarak »

yulaow wrote: post #22
EC1 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't remember the last time the teams I've worked on ever mentioned making the site usable for people without JS and people with disabilities. "It's not in the scope!" Ugh.

I work for a public university, so when we make new sites or webapps we are obliged to make them usable for people with disabilities and we have at least one person who focus only on testing this... but without javascript? That is not even considered. The web IS javascript driven

> The web IS javascript driven

I think the idea that you need Javascript to drive a page designed to show an article consisting of text and images is probably worth questioning. Maybe you do, I don't know. But I think you should at least think about instead of falling back on the idea that the web is Javascript-driven.

You (probably) won't be benefiting the people without Javascript because hopefully your page works for them anyway. (Astoundingly, some simple article-type pages do not.) You will be benefiting yourself and almost all users because, without JS, your site will load faster and (often as not on really JS-heavy websites) scroll faster.

If you're creating a webapp, sure, you'd be crazy not to use Javascript.

But it's insane that Internet comment threads or text-based articles can drive yy i7 to 100% usage.

Re: What It Was Like to Seek Asylum in Medieval England

#34

Post by javert »

pdabbadabba wrote: post #13
jbuzbee wrote: post #3

>> [Church Asylum] surprisingly survived (in a much changed form) into the 17th century. Longer than that. There was a case this year in Denver where an illegal alien was given sanctuary in a church to prevent his deportation. After nine months, a deal was worked out and he was allowed to leave without fear of deportation. http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_26803443/man-facing-deport... And of course the other big Asy…

I suspect you're just trading on the multiple meanings of "sanctuary" to inject your political views into this conversation. The modern practice bears only superficial similarities with the medieval practice. Yes, people use the word "sanctuary" to describe the practice explained in the article, and also to describe modern U.S. localities' policies of selectively enforcing federal immigration laws. (I say "selectivel…

To point out that there is a modern practice that is similar is relevant to the conversation and not particularly inflammatory.

The proper way to converse on HN is to address the content of the comment, not complain that it exists, like speech police. Unless the comment is clearly WAY over the line, like if it were full of racial slurs. This case is not at all like that.

These kinds of speech police comments---and there is more than just this one---are what is turning this thread into a flame war.

Only a very small part of the political specturm would interpret the comment in question as contra their political views and thus "inflammatory," and I'll leave it to implication which part that is. Hint: It's the part that is the usual culprit for wanting to restrict speech.

Re: What It Was Like to Seek Asylum in Medieval England

#35

Post by llamataboot »

peterfirefly wrote: post #12
jbuzbee wrote: post #3

>> [Church Asylum] surprisingly survived (in a much changed form) into the 17th century. Longer than that. There was a case this year in Denver where an illegal alien was given sanctuary in a church to prevent his deportation. After nine months, a deal was worked out and he was allowed to leave without fear of deportation. http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_26803443/man-facing-deport... And of course the other big Asy…

It is also apparently a de facto right in Germany (but not a de jure right). https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchenasyl We (Denmark) also had a case in 1991/1992 where hundreds of (criminal) rejected asylum seekers occupied a church for a long time, in full cooperation with the priest and plenty of left-wing politicians and musicians. It ended with a special law that granted them asylum -- whereupon most of them conti…

hmmm...I think calling anti-fascists that are trying to protect migrants from fascist violence is a pretty large inversion of terms given the original black and brown shirts.

Re: What It Was Like to Seek Asylum in Medieval England

#36

Post by will_brown »

nkurz wrote: post #30
will_brown wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The city of San Francisco did not give Lopez-Sanchez (the alleged murderer) sanctuary in the same way as described in the article...I found your comparison to medieval sanctuary to be cheap and inflammatory. Every time I touch on an immigration related topic on HN, I swear it is the last time, but because it is so personal to me I just simply can't resist. OP falls into the classical logical error equating undocume…

I think many people use the term "illegal immigrant" not because it is pejorative but because it seems like a natural way to distinguish from "legal immigrant". And (if true) I wasn't aware that all immigration law is civil. I'd presumed that there was a parallel with "criminal trespass", but perhaps that phrase is itself a misnomer. Could you point to some sources that explain the difference between "unlawful", "ill…

>And (if true) I wasn't aware that all immigration law is civil. I'd presumed that there was a parallel with "criminal trespass", but perhaps that phrase is itself a misnomer.

"If true"...like I said there are just certain groups/individuals who can not wrap their minds around the idea immigration status is separate and distinct from criminal law. The crazy thing to me is not even where these ideas come from, I guess it just doesn't matter, but the length people go to in order to maintain their present state of thought. Just do a simple Google Search of "is immigration law civil or criminal", you don't even need to click a result, Google gives you the Answer.

>Could you point to some sources that explain the difference between "unlawful", "illegal", and "criminal" as you understand them?

Its not so much as I understand them, as their definitions in a legal context.

"Unlawful"/"illegal" are terms that may be used interchangeably and by definition indicate the violation of a law (either civil or criminal), so all criminal acts are unlawful/illegal but not all unlawful/illegal acts are criminal. For example, the Court ruled that Apple unlawfully/illegally fixed e-book prices[1], yet that is not criminal nor to we go around calling Apple an "illegal company". That is the pejorative nature of "illegal" in the immigration context, where it implies criminality...in fact is likely the reason you didn't know immigration law is civil and presumed a parallel with criminal trespass.

Source: myself, but I can point you to Black's Law Dictionary, I feel confident their definitions will be consistent with my own.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Apple_Inc

Re: What It Was Like to Seek Asylum in Medieval England

#37

Post by elektromekatron »

javert wrote: post #34
pdabbadabba wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect you're just trading on the multiple meanings of "sanctuary" to inject your political views into this conversation. The modern practice bears only superficial similarities with the medieval practice. Yes, people use the word "sanctuary" to describe the practice explained in the article, and also to describe modern U.S. localities' policies of selectively enforcing federal immigration laws. (I say "selectivel…

To point out that there is a modern practice that is similar is relevant to the conversation and not particularly inflammatory. The proper way to converse on HN is to address the content of the comment, not complain that it exists, like speech police. Unless the comment is clearly WAY over the line, like if it were full of racial slurs. This case is not at all like that. These kinds of speech police comments---and th…

Are you really making the argument that people who are liberal with regard to migration are the inverse when it comes to speech?

Re: What It Was Like to Seek Asylum in Medieval England

#38

Post by nsajko »

pointym5 wrote: post #16

The first image in that article is labeled Notre Dame , but that's the title for lots of cathedrals in France. That particular one is Notre Dame de Reims. The reproduced old image towards the bottom is jokingly called "Notre Dame back in the notre day", but that is clearly Westminster Abbey.

To add to your comment: Notre Dame simply means Our Lady. I think it's clear that that by itself is quite ambiguous.

Re: What It Was Like to Seek Asylum in Medieval England

#39

Post by bane »

pflanze wrote: post #25
bane wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's like saying "turn off the ability to execute programs on your computer". Nobody's going to seriously start gearing web-dev towards a no-javascript world.

We're talking about static content here. I'm asking to read a document, not execute a program.

You've apparently missed the last 10-15 years of web development. The web is no more about static content these days as cars are about horses.

If you want static documents, I recommend pdfs?

Re: What It Was Like to Seek Asylum in Medieval England

#40

Post by pdabbadabba »

javert wrote: post #34
pdabbadabba wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect you're just trading on the multiple meanings of "sanctuary" to inject your political views into this conversation. The modern practice bears only superficial similarities with the medieval practice. Yes, people use the word "sanctuary" to describe the practice explained in the article, and also to describe modern U.S. localities' policies of selectively enforcing federal immigration laws. (I say "selectivel…

To point out that there is a modern practice that is similar is relevant to the conversation and not particularly inflammatory. The proper way to converse on HN is to address the content of the comment, not complain that it exists, like speech police. Unless the comment is clearly WAY over the line, like if it were full of racial slurs. This case is not at all like that. These kinds of speech police comments---and th…

The speech-police impulse must truly be powerful, because apparently even you have been unable to resist it! Or is speech metapolicing somehow more valuable? A wise person once told me that "The proper way to converse on HN is to address the content of the comment, not complain that it exists, like speech police." But I digress.

To your point: I think you'll find that I did primarily address the content of the comment, concluding that it drew a false comparison. My suggestion that the comment was probably more inflammatory than valuable was the conclusion of my discussion of the content. I can't quite see that you've given me the same courtesy, though.

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