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Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

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Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#141
post #110
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "shut up and build things" position embodies the tacit assumption that the world naturally pushes itself to an equillibrium that is fair and just. The assumption that racism and sexism result in elastic deformation of society that will go away as soon as you remove whatever force is warping it. I don't think history bears that out. Society is a soft ductile metal. If you bend it, it'll stay bent. You have to hamm…

[deleted]

There are two assumptions between that claim that I don't think are proven: first, that a hostile environment in the tech industry can't have an indirect effect on young women considering a career in tech; second, that the cohort taking the AP Computer Science test is a close reflection of the tech workforce, and that an attrition rate can be meaningfully derived between the two.

The latter assumption in particular is one that I find highly dubious. This is only anecdotal, but I have noticed that many more of the women I meet in software started coding later in life than the men -- college or later. It's more likely to be a second or third career. Sometimes it was an aptitude discovered while working as non-technical staff at a software company. So an attempt to measure the effect of misogyny in the tech industry via attrition from AP Computer Science seems doomed from the start.

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#142
post #110
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "shut up and build things" position embodies the tacit assumption that the world naturally pushes itself to an equillibrium that is fair and just. The assumption that racism and sexism result in elastic deformation of society that will go away as soon as you remove whatever force is warping it. I don't think history bears that out. Society is a soft ductile metal. If you bend it, it'll stay bent. You have to hamm…

[deleted]

> Nothing that happens between twelfth grade and death decreases the percent of women interested in computer science one whit.

Statistics [1]: 56% of women in technology leave their employer mid-career, and 24% of these women take a non-technical job with a different employer. "This is double the turnover rate of men."

It would appear, then, that actually something does happen between high school and death which decreases women's interest in CS. It is not due to women leaving their career for family either, since many of this 56% decide to continue working, but in a non-technical role.

Thoughts?

[1]: http://www.techrepublic.com/article/the-state-of-women-in-te..., no 10

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they just want both sides to shut up > Why should women Sorry, not keen to argue here. Quite a good post in the original article, thought it was an interesting take. italics added for emphasis.

This assumes an equivalence between men and women that doesn't exist here. If both sides were equally put-upon, it'd be neutral to call for both sides to shut up. When one side has a clear advantage, it is not.

>When one side has a clear advantage, it is not.

So then women are the ones who need to follow that advice. One only needs to look at CDC studies to see the socially wide preferential treatment they receive to see how great an advantage it is. Oh, it is called 'benevolent sexism' in an attempt to paint it as bad, but when you take a look at society as a whole, it is clear which group is actually better off.

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#144
post #101
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe they just read, say, Dworkin, on how all heterosexual sex is rape? Pretending people who disagree with political movements just need to understand those movements more is presumptuous.

Michael Moorcock: Several reviewers accused you of saying that all intercourse was rape. I haven't found a hint of that anywhere in the book. Is that what you are saying? Dworkin: No, I wasn't saying that and I didn't say that, then or ever.… My point was that as long as the law allows statutory exemption for a husband from rape charges, no married woman has legal protection from rape. I also argued, based on a readi…

I understand Dworkin says she didn't say that. Here is the actual quote, which seems very different from the 'point' above:

> A human being has a body that is inviolate; and when it is violated, it is abused. A woman has a body that is penetrated in intercourse: permeable, its corporeal solidness a lie. The discourse of male truth --literature, science, philosophy, pornography-- calls that penetration violation. This it does with some consistency and some confidence. Violation is a synonym for intercourse. At the same time, the penetration is taken to be a use, not an abuse; a normal use; it is appropriate to enter her, to push into ("violate") the boundaries of her body. She is human, of course, but by a standard that does not include physical privacy. She is, in fact, human by a standard that precludes physical privacy, since to keep a man out altogether and for a lifetime is deviant in the extreme, a psychopathology, a repudiation of the way in which she is expected to manifest her humanity.

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#145
post #7

This is from 2013. It seems like a response to something, possibly one of Shanley's essays that's now no longer on Medium; I can't help but feel that I'm missing context as I get towards the end. This also seems like a straightforward example of how mainstream feminism is bad at intersectionality. Arguably both sides in this discussion are not great at it: I feel like there's probably a good answer that involves neit…

Is it wrong to object to Shanley for the same reason I object to Tourvalds?

I think there's an interesting thought about intersectionality there. I am assuming your common objection is rudeness (that is, at least, mine). But there's some subtlety.

Linus is, by all reasonable measures, completely powerful at (I think) everything he wants to be doing. He's the only person with commit access to the Linux kernel. He works for a foundation named after himself whose primary goal is to employ him. When he yells at someone on a mailing list, it's doubly objectionable: first, for inherent human-dignity reasons of rudeness, and second, because he doesn't need to. To quote one of his former subsystem maintainers, "I've seen you be polite ... You just don't want to take the time to be polite to everyone. .... You are in a position of power. Stop verbally abusing your developers." If there's something he doesn't want in the kernel, he can just refuse to pull it. He doesn't need to get anyone's attention; he doesn't need to defend his point (there are plenty of good things that he's quietly refused to merge because he doesn't like them), he can just do what he wants. So the rudeness is gratuitous.

Shanley generally doesn't have those luxuries. She doesn't control the conversation on tech feminism, and she certainly doesn't control the culture of the Valley. When she's rude, it's often because that's the only way she can get attention. I actually think, if you read her tweets carefully, that she's very intentional in pushing the Overton window and making space for less-rude people to push their point. It's certainly possible she could accomplish her goals without rudeness, but she couldn't simply drop the rudeness the way Linus does.

(There are more things to consider here, like Linus still being in the industry and Shanley not. On the flip side, there's Shanley's treatment of people she works with and does have power over.)

If you consider those sorts of things and conclude that your problem is with the fundamental behavior of rudeness, or that neither form of rudeness is more defensible than the other, I don't think that's wrong at all. But if you haven't thought about it at all, and you look at Linus and say he's rude, and you look at Shanley and say she's rude too, I think your opinion is poorly informed, because they are coming out of very different places and they have very different intentions and effects.

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#146

The author is a friend of mine. What I say below is something I've discussed with her. I think the last great frontier for humanity's "waking up from history" is awareness of group psychology, particularly the psychology of the "other." Ironically, as noted by GCP Grey, widespread access to the Internet has actually made such group psychology worse . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc One of the big problems…

You might be interested in the book 'The Righteous Mind' by Jonathan Haidt... he talks about that group psychology, and the importance of having social contexts where those energies can be expressed in a non-destructive way - such as college/city sports teams.

Also, do you have a reading recommendation for learning more about that aspect of Martin Luther King Jr. and his compatriots?

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#147

The author is a friend of mine. What I say below is something I've discussed with her. I think the last great frontier for humanity's "waking up from history" is awareness of group psychology, particularly the psychology of the "other." Ironically, as noted by GCP Grey, widespread access to the Internet has actually made such group psychology worse . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc One of the big problems…

More mindfulness, consideration and empathy would be great, and hopefully stop the endless tidal waves of bile that pours from SJWs who are more interested in being outraged than in actually making society better!

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#148
post #38
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thrust of the article seemed to me to be that the author feels her experiences are being erased by prominent views on women in tech - that folks like Kane are labelling her experiences as invalid.

I agree that's how she feels. What I'm trying to say is that the problem isn't with her experiences, which are totally valid, but the extrapolation of those experiences into suggestions that place responsibility with victims rather than perpetrators.

[deleted]

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#149

The author is a friend of mine. What I say below is something I've discussed with her. I think the last great frontier for humanity's "waking up from history" is awareness of group psychology, particularly the psychology of the "other." Ironically, as noted by GCP Grey, widespread access to the Internet has actually made such group psychology worse . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc One of the big problems…

I agree with the initial thesis and would go so far as to say two of the top functions of 'education' are to create empathy for others and to create self-respect. However, I don't believe that the internet has made things worse; rather it has just uncovered what was already there. Also, trying to argue that our species reverts to the base programming is specious. If that were true, polygamy and murder would be the rule of law, if there were laws at all besides that of the fist. More citations are needed to justify that.

I do believe that the internet, like fire, can burn or heat our species. We learn, slowly, how to use this medium. I think that we are slowly bending towards justice, to borrow from MLK, but that it will take a long long time. Also, something that is always lost is the inherent entropy in the system, the chaos that comes to any complex network. Some amount of 'bad' will always be here, if only by the random chance of life. Most 'hatevists' have logical arguments, it's just that the lemmas and starting points are off or they have taken one wrong step that sent them spinning into hate and terror. Fixing those steps is arduous and energy intense, but necessary.

Hopefully, the tech will help us here. The massive amount of data that Google and the NSA collects could be put forth in an effort to study the mechanics of ethics and personalities. That, again, is fire, and in the wrong hands, it'll burn. But discovery is like that, and you have to see through the flames of chemical weapons and siege towers to get to fertilizers and the Hagia Sophia.

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#150
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "shut up and build things" position embodies the tacit assumption that the world naturally pushes itself to an equillibrium that is fair and just. The assumption that racism and sexism result in elastic deformation of society that will go away as soon as you remove whatever force is warping it. I don't think history bears that out. Society is a soft ductile metal. If you bend it, it'll stay bent. You have to hamm…

"The "shut up and build things" position embodies the tacit assumption that the world naturally pushes itself to an equillibrium that is fair and just." It does not. It embodies the tacit assumption that some people prefer to spend their time building something tangible rather than devoting their lives tilting at the windmills of eradicating racism, sexism, and all the other bigotries endemic to our society. Tilting…

> Tilting at those windmills is important, and might be a cause worthy of devoting your life to it, but it's not everyone's calling.

"Tilting at windmills" means attacking imaginary enemies, you really can't have it both ways of calling work on eradicating racism, sexism, and other bigotries "Tilting at windmills" and then say it's important.

Further, eradicating racism, sexism, etc.. IS EVERYONE'S CALLING. If you don't hear the call, you're part of the problem, PERIOD.

You propose a world where a handful of us don't get to participate in society because all we have time to do is to yell at you about being a dummkopf.

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