How Berlin’s Futuristic Airport Became a $6B Embarrassment • Hacker News Board

Re: How Berlin’s Futuristic Airport Became a $6B Embarrassment

#61

Post by kjs3 » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 5:05 PM UTC

krschultz wrote: post #18

hvs wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Denver still has the issue that it's a 20 mile drive from downtown out of some misguided belief that the city was just going to instantly grow out to it.

Honestly it's a PITA when you fly, but how often do you fly? I'd rather the airport be far from downtown than have the approach/departure routes right over populated neighborhoods. That gets really annoying really quickly.

> Honestly it's a PITA when you fly, but how often do you fly?

I was a Delta Gold Medallion flyer for years (50k+ miles), and couple of times flirted with Platinum (75k+ miles). So...basically on a flight a couple of times a week, every week. There are large numbers of us. Denver is a pain in the ass.

Re: How Berlin’s Futuristic Airport Became a $6B Embarrassment

#62

Post by rqebmm » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 5:14 PM UTC

philippnagel wrote: post #60

x0rg wrote: post #56

This is what happens with many software projects following crazy customers and waterfall approaches. Clearly we never speak about 6 billion, but hey, shit happens...

Can you develop a big infrastructure project using agile methodologies?

IT doesn't seem unreasonable to plan a project in stages, focusing on the most critical components in order, and only starting on the next once the first is ready. For instance with an airport you could build one terminal at a time. Obviously this would have limitations, but it could be a better system than trying to build a gigantic airport all at once, when it's already somewhat modular (i.e. terminals)

Re: How Berlin’s Futuristic Airport Became a $6B Embarrassment

#63

Post by rqebmm » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 5:14 PM UTC

philippnagel wrote: post #60

x0rg wrote: post #56

This is what happens with many software projects following crazy customers and waterfall approaches. Clearly we never speak about 6 billion, but hey, shit happens...

Can you develop a big infrastructure project using agile methodologies?

IT doesn't seem unreasonable to plan a project in stages, focusing on the most critical components in order, and only starting on the next once the first is ready. For instance with an airport you could build one terminal at a time. Obviously this would have limitations, but it could be a better system than trying to build a gigantic airport all at once, when it's already somewhat modular (i.e. terminals)

Re: How Berlin’s Futuristic Airport Became a $6B Embarrassment

#64

Post by DasIch » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 5:21 PM UTC

gutnor wrote: post #31

CurtHagenlocher wrote: post #4

"At the very moment Merkel and her allies are hectoring the Greeks about their profligacy, the airport’s cost, borne by taxpayers, has tripled to €5.4 billion." So, which country does Germany want to borrow money from in order to cover the wasteful spending?

Not quite sure if it is still the case, but not so long ago Germany was borrowing money at negative interest rate.

That was true for the federal government however I would expect the rates for states and local governments to be quite different.

Re: How Berlin’s Futuristic Airport Became a $6B Embarrassment

#65

Post by codeshaman » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 5:21 PM UTC

manishsharan wrote: post #36

codeshaman wrote: post #25

Bribe the inspectors and open up on time - then somehow patch the problem later. Everyone wins. That's what they would do in a lot of places in the world. If a German airport, with a huge budget, has 150.000 defects of which 85k are serious, then what about airports in other countries, which don't make use of the world-famous german high quality standards ? What about airports in countries were things are solved with…

I am not sure what exactly you are insinuating but I would counter that more of thid world should aspire to German standards of engineering excellence rather than Germany falling to the standards of "other countries, which don't make use of the world-famous german high quality standards ".

I was insinuating that airports in those countries might be tragic and dangerous.

Re: How Berlin’s Futuristic Airport Became a $6B Embarrassment

#66

Post by rmc » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 5:25 PM UTC

ghshephard wrote: post #26

I realize that higher standards of fire and other safety measures make these systems more complicated, but you would think that with all the technology we have today for planning, engineering, communication, documentation, modeling and simulation - that these types of fiascos would become rarer and rarer. I wonder if anyone has looked at large scale projects like these over the last 100 years and determined what impl…

We have also upped our standards, and require safer buildings, less chance of fire, and in the event of a fire, less deaths. This is a good thing.

Re: How Berlin’s Futuristic Airport Became a $6B Embarrassment

#67

Post by Loughla » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 5:30 PM UTC

calbear81 wrote: post #23

strictnein wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And all the crazy artwork. The conspiracy theorists go nuts over it. http://mysteryoftheiniquity.com/2011/03/20/denver-internatio...

I was really intrigued by the comment about how the Queen of England bought property near the airport which is apparently proof that the United States has never been an independent country but a pawn of good ol' England.

I love conspiracy theorists that see anything marked New World, and then immediately start in on how the new world order wants to kill/chip all of us. As if the existence of an elite group of puppet masters is just an established fact, and it's just the end result that the group wants that is up for debate.

Delusions are terrifying.

Re: How Berlin’s Futuristic Airport Became a $6B Embarrassment

#68

Post by netcan » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 5:35 PM UTC

Why do airports always need to be so ambitious? Usually the simple airports are best anyway.

Re: How Berlin’s Futuristic Airport Became a $6B Embarrassment

#69

Post by frik » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 5:40 PM UTC

I saw a ZDF TV docu about Berlin Airport last year. Very low-ceilinged halls and rooms means the cannot integrate gas purge and fire safety pipes and equipment. It seems so serious that an international experts in the docu suggested to rebuild parts of the airport buildings. And it seems weird that the airport will be already too small for the passenger traffic in 2017. Given that it should replace the former largest airport in the world Berlin Tempelhof and two other airports near Berlin. Several politicans have already been replaced because of scandals and multi-year delays. Shop space was already leased in ~2011 and employees already waited to begin their new work. It seems really a lot has gone wrong with BER. It would probably be cheaper to blow up the already too small buildings and build completely new ones or reactivate Tempelhof.

Re: How Berlin’s Futuristic Airport Became a $6B Embarrassment

#70

Post by protomyth » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 5:41 PM UTC

germanier wrote: post #53

giarc wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you provide an English summary?

I try but don't hold me accountable for any inaccuracies. At the moment three public prosecutors independently investigate that companies practices which is rare in Germany: 1) A gigantic adventure park in Poland which was never supposed to be built 2) A cartel which allowed them to build two power plants 3) Falsification of balance sheets. Imtech is responsible for parts of the airport's construction – including the…

"Imtech send fraudulent invoices they knew nobody would double-check. This is a practice that seems really common with such projects."

Yeah, this is a bit too typical and happens in the USA also. If you ever have to deal with building something, check every invoice as if it was from Snidely Whiplash.