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The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town

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Re: The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town

#81

Post by robotresearcher »

chucknelson wrote: post #50
macNchz wrote: post #23

My girlfriend worked for a 'beltway bandit' in Rockville Maryland for a while after college, exactly in the midst of the office parks described in this article. Everything about the environment of metro-DC suburban Maryland was absolutely repellent to me. Miles and miles of office parks, housing developments and strip malls, over and over and over. I couldn't stand the idea of having a daily routine of sitting in 8 l…

I'd argue that the "faceless office building" portion isn't really an issue. They're nice enough on the inside, and when you're deep in work you probably don't notice too often. The worst part is probably the typical lack of anything around those office parks except for...more office parks. At least if you're downtown or in some more commercial-heavy area, there are places to go and eat! :)

> there are places to go and eat!

And visit the dentist, buy a shirt, get a gift for a kid's birthday party: all the things that are hard to do on a weekday if you are stranded out of town.

Re: The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town

#82

Post by fixxer »

bunderbunder wrote: post #26

I think suburbia might be a victim of its own success. As people moved out to more widely-dispersed communities, that caused commuting all the way downtown for work to be increasingly problematic. So of course that encouraged demand for business to also move out to the suburbs. Eventually things got so dispersed that people had to start driving everywhere. Roads got congested. It became increasingly common for people…

I live an hour outside of Chicago and mostly work from home; I'm in the city maybe 1 day per week. I fought moving out of the city for a while, but I have really come to love it, especially when it comes to raising kids. When I have to head into Chicago, I take the train. It is weird how quickly you can go from yuppie to suburbanite. My property taxes are high, but my overall cost (and quality) of living is better than if I was living in Chicago.

The housing market by me has been stable with small (tiny) growth and consistent demand. Turnover for new construction has been solid.

Retail & office space, however, is suffering. If you're close to small downtowns with character, the story is different, but strip malls and shopping centers are amazingly screwed. Great example is the Charlestowne Mall in St. Charles. Just the anchors and a movie theater remain.

That said, I look at that excess capacity and see opportunity more than peril. And, it is worth noting, that excess capacity for office/retail space is an issue in city centers as well. This phenomenon is as much a result of changes in consumer behavior as it is subprime aftershocks. It is reductionist to claim otherwise.

Re: The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town

#83

Post by ocb »

astrocyte wrote: post #34

All of this works in cycles. There once was a time when people were flocking to the suburbs. Now, it is fashionable to live in the city. This too will pass when people (a generation maybe) comes to understand the little value obtained from all the chaos and activity. What are people chasing? Technology has made it easier to be in touch and socialize w/ people beyond physical geography. Transportation is getting bette…

I'm skeptical that you can call this a cycle when we have no idea what's going to happen... Suburbanization isn't some recurring thing that's happened countlessly throughout history.

It's also possible to have urban, walkable neighborhoods where parking isn't extremely difficult or expensive. SF is pretty atypical in the US when it comes to population density.

Re: The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town

#84

Post by tosseraccount »

Then how come office vacancy rates are way down and rents way up?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/04/01/property-usa-offic...

U.S. office vacancy rate fell to 16.6 percent in the first quarter from 16.7 in the fourth, the lowest since the third quarter of 2009

Washington D.C. remained the tightest market, with a vacancy rate of 9.3 percent. New York followed at 9.6 percent.

What happened at 6116 Executive Blvd in Rockville, MD is that the big fat Federal client moved even farther outside the beltway to new digs in Gaithersburg, Maryland (to another, newer office complex.)

New place is one of those "faux green" buildings where everything like the light switches, blinds, faucets and toilets don't work intuitively if they even work at all. They have to mow the roof so at least you can feel Eco-conscious as you flush 3 times.

Old place was close to Whole Foods and walkable to the metro(subway). New place is close to Subway(sandwich shop).

If the Washington Press wants to bemoan the old office space situation at NIH (National Institutes of Health), then they should ask about having NIH tear down the fortified walls they built around their beautiful Bethesda campus because of "9-11 terrorist threats". The old NIH used to look like a friendly college campus. Now it looks like a gated community with TSA style security theater.

Re: The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town

#85

Post by pappyo »

I see this as a buy low opportunity for those that could afford such a thing. Let me paint a picture of the future:

- In five to ten years, 20 and 30 somethings of today who have mostly flocked to metropolitan areas don't leave when they are at the age of starting a family. The lack of space is still trumped by the a near zero commute and the cultural landscape that surrounds them.

- Right around that time, self-driving car services (Uber sans drivers) have started making serious headway in metropolitan areas. Traffic within the cities have drastically reduced due to less cars on the road and less need for parking. (So that cab ride across town that once took 35 minutes, now takes nine).

- With the reduction in traffic, corporations never changing urn to save a buck, and the next crop of 20 and 30 somethings that want to create their own identity, businesses start snatching up these industrial park cemetaries. More space, less money, room to grow. They no longer have to worry about employee parking. The commute out to the building is only 15 minutes (where it used to be a full hour +). AND YOU GET YOUR OWN OFFICE!!!!

In a sea of community work spaces, "YOUR OWN OFFICE" is the shiney fish.

- And of course, once one business successfully implements this strategy, the rest of sure to follow.

Brass tacks, these office parks are dying because of increasing traffic and fuel costs...and that's really it. If we do wind up living in a world where people don't own cars and the self-driving car startups of today eliminate tomorrow's traffic, no doubt these cemeteries will see a second coming. If I had the funds, I'd wait for the industrial park real estate market to bottom and then start snatching up property.

Re: The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town

#86

Post by LordKano »

Tiktaalik wrote: post #46
bunderbunder wrote: post #26

I think suburbia might be a victim of its own success. As people moved out to more widely-dispersed communities, that caused commuting all the way downtown for work to be increasingly problematic. So of course that encouraged demand for business to also move out to the suburbs. Eventually things got so dispersed that people had to start driving everywhere. Roads got congested. It became increasingly common for people…

I'm not sure anyone really loves suburbia, but once in place, car oriented development has a way of being self sustaining. This "Cycle of automobile dependency" image shows it pretty well. http://imgur.com/Y9vxbNN Only recently, with huge effort and many setbacks, are we starting to see cities break out of car oriented development and this endless suburban sprawl creating loop. I'm a bit concerned that the advent of…

I'm not sure anyone really loves suburbia

I would guess that has a lot to do with how one defines the term.

I love living outside of the city. I wouldn't have it any other way. When I'm ready to retire, I plan to move even further away from the city.

I grew up in the suburbs. I am raising my children in the suburbs. I detest going into the city. The traffic, the parking, the population density and the crammed nature of city living all irritate me to no end.

Unfortunately, I have to go into the city for work. That is the primary reason why I'm waiting until retirement to move further away.

Within the last 10 years we have had a real problem in the area. The gentrification of certain inner-city areas has made it impossible for the low income residents to remain there, so they've been moving out to the suburbs and bringing a lot of crime with them.

Try as we might to escape the problems of city living that drove us out two generations ago, the city keeps sending its problems our way.

Re: The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town

#87

Post by joshyeager »

Tiktaalik wrote: post #46
bunderbunder wrote: post #26

I think suburbia might be a victim of its own success. As people moved out to more widely-dispersed communities, that caused commuting all the way downtown for work to be increasingly problematic. So of course that encouraged demand for business to also move out to the suburbs. Eventually things got so dispersed that people had to start driving everywhere. Roads got congested. It became increasingly common for people…

I'm not sure anyone really loves suburbia, but once in place, car oriented development has a way of being self sustaining. This "Cycle of automobile dependency" image shows it pretty well. http://imgur.com/Y9vxbNN Only recently, with huge effort and many setbacks, are we starting to see cities break out of car oriented development and this endless suburban sprawl creating loop. I'm a bit concerned that the advent of…

I love suburbia. Living in a city is stressful and crowded. I'd like to live in a rural environment, but then I'd have to drive a very long way to get to work, stores, and entertainment. Living in a quiet suburb gives me the best of both worlds. It's only a 10 minute drive to the downtown library, good restaurants, and other fun stuff. Since I picked a job that's located near my suburb, my commute is also short and avoids highways. And I don't have to fight city traffic or interact with lots of surrounding people in my everyday life.

Sure, I can't walk to ten different restaurants and an art museum, but that's pretty low on my list of wants.

Re: The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town

#88

Post by astrocyte »

sosborn wrote: post #61
untog wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I think of California, I think of the beautiful outdoors and geography... Which an office park isn't, either. Of course the outdoors and mountains are very attractive but they're not a viable workplace. While many of your city complaints are valid, it's not as if the suburbs solves all of them. "There is no parking available for friends visiting me." Sure, and if you live in the suburbs there is plenty of parkin…

>Sure, and if you live in the suburbs there is plenty of parking but nothing to do. It all depends on the person. When I was younger I enjoyed city life, but now that I am older and have kids I prefer hanging out with them at the park near my suburban dwelling. The city offers certain people plenty to do, and the suburbs offers other people plenty to do. Finding out which one appeals to you and getting there is one o…

100% agreed. That being said, there are larger trends beyond an individual. Dominant ideology exists beyond my experience and your experience. When I was younger, I had a blast in SF. I wanted to be seen. I wanted to be discovered. I wanted to discover. Then you find out the truth and grow beyond it.

Some generations grow up believing they need to be in the city .. Some generations grow up believing the city offers nothing but noise. A more external generation loves the idea of a dense city. A more internal generation sees it as a chaotic detraction. This sets the tone beyond our anecdotes. Right now the tone is : external (city). This larger trend will change. It already has been demonstrated by the huge suburban dwellings that built en masse and the multiple generations who grew up in them w/ no desire for the city. I developed lasting relationships .. What did I do as a kid in the suburbs? LOL, I got an education and enjoyed an innocent and beautiful childhood. College/20's .. I enjoyed the city but never frothed over it (I was part of the suburban generation). There's a new wave that feels that no life exists beyond the city ... It's a cycle.. A trend ..

Re: The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town

#89

Post by Tiktaalik »

bduerst wrote: post #69
bunderbunder wrote: post #26

I think suburbia might be a victim of its own success. As people moved out to more widely-dispersed communities, that caused commuting all the way downtown for work to be increasingly problematic. So of course that encouraged demand for business to also move out to the suburbs. Eventually things got so dispersed that people had to start driving everywhere. Roads got congested. It became increasingly common for people…

Isn't this one of the goals of self-driving cars? Having vehicles that don't require human operation means that cars can spend less time in parking lots as depreciating assets and more time filling transportation demand. By reducing inefficiencies, it should free up traffic congestion and make it easier to commute to these office parks, right?

Even supposing a high amount of self driving car sharing rather than ownership, you still run into the issue that cars fundamentally require a lot of space both in roads and parking and the sprawl creating results of accommodating this fact.

Self driving cars are an example of doing the wrong thing (automobile oriented development) better. The right thing is developing cities around people, not cars. This means creating walkable spaces with cycling and public transit prioritized above automobiles.

Re: The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town

#90

Post by rhino369 »

rayiner wrote: post #48
macNchz wrote: post #23

My girlfriend worked for a 'beltway bandit' in Rockville Maryland for a while after college, exactly in the midst of the office parks described in this article. Everything about the environment of metro-DC suburban Maryland was absolutely repellent to me. Miles and miles of office parks, housing developments and strip malls, over and over and over. I couldn't stand the idea of having a daily routine of sitting in 8 l…

> exactly in the midst of the office parks described in this article. Everything about the environment of metro-DC suburban Maryland was absolutely repellent to me. Miles and miles of office parks, housing developments and strip malls, over and over and over. What boggles my mind is that the people here have money and choose to live this way.

Because the parts of DC that you can safely, raise a family in are either:

1) Really expensive

2) Essentially suburban anyway. Most of NW is suburban.

3) both 1 & 2

Another cause is that until 10 years ago most of the city was considered to be too unsafe. Gentrification has gone into overdrive and has greatly expanded the area middle class and UMC people will live. But even then a lot of that area is still pretty crazy in terms of cultural stuff. And it isn't as safe as people claim. There has been a recently uptick in violence. People getting murdered on the metro. A home invasion that led to a family getting massacred. A guy got shot in a luxury high rise in NOMA.

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