Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Chicago fires investigator who found cops at fault in shootings

wbez.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 113 posts

Re: Chicago fires investigator who found cops at fault in shootings

#41

Post by shkkmo »

dragontamer wrote: post #33
rosser wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's "taking pride in your work", and there's "the thin blue line". One of those things is healthy. The other is emphatically not. It's left as an exercise for the reader to determine which is which.

Agreed. But then there are plenty of newbie (and even veteran) cops who don't understand the difference either. Keeping that in mind, and educating them of the viewpoint is more important than yelling at them or breaking them down.

Any examples on how to do this? I haven't seen many good examples of arguments that don't just swept under the rug.

Re: Chicago fires investigator who found cops at fault in shootings

#42

Post by theseatoms »

Zikes wrote: post #4

I think it's time we recognized that we are essentially second class citizens, after police. They are consistently able to commit crimes without being prosecuted. They can use their position and influence to target and harass their personal enemies. When they are prosecuted for a crime, the sentencing is consistently far less than a non-LEO offender's. And there's no more recourse for us. When a police officer shows…

Agreed. Though I'm tempted to say that this problem isn't getting worse and that our awareness is only becoming more acute, the existence of digital information increases the potential for abuses of power. (No specific cases come to mind at the moment, but I'd wager that it happens more than occasionally.)

So what can we do about it? Record the police.

EDIT: Typo..

Re: Chicago fires investigator who found cops at fault in shootings

#43

Post by rosser »

slantyyz wrote: post #35
drzaiusapelord wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is Chicago, we really have no republicans in power. The downvotes are just knee-jerk stupidity because the MSM doesn't report much on union abuse and unions largely get a free pass in the US for political reasons. Democrats won't go after them as they more or less pay for Democratic campaigns.

As a non-American, I find it interesting how so many Americans (especially online commenters) refer to other Americans only as liberal/Democrat or conservative/Republican these days. Is America that polarized? Or, are the people with more complex views (i.e., having both liberal and conservative viewpoints) just less likely to speak out?

Yes, and yes.

America is that polarized, and when people with more nuanced views speak up, they tend to get shouted down immediately by the "side" that sees some aspect of "the other side"'s views in the nuance, drowning them out in the noise.

Want to make a nuanced point in a discussion about gun control? You're probably from Kenya, too. Want to make a subtle distinction in a debate about investment banks, or energy policy? You must hate poor people, or the planet, or...

Net, we (or at least I) tend not to get involved in political discussions, as I'm almost invariably going to have to spend more time arguing about how I'm not actually a filthy lib'ral or whatever, than about the point I'd wanted to make in the first place, so fuck it. You guys have fun shouting yourselves hoarse and slapping yourselves on the back for how hateful you can be towards random strangers on the internet.

Re: Chicago fires investigator who found cops at fault in shootings

#44

Post by fweespeech »

justwannasing wrote: post #10

Gonna give you guys a few quick blurbs. First, a chief of police was interviewed on CBS News a while back. He said there are thousands upon thousands of police interactions with citizens every day but all anyone ever hears about is the one bad one that happened one time. Second, and this might sound off-topic but I hope you get my point. I was helping a guy move, a few months back, along with one of his friends who's…

> I think of that every time I see an article, here on HN, and the comments by people trying to blame the cops for everything as if they're against us.

You are aware this is an article where the cops fired someone specifically because he said cops were at fault in numerous incidents?

This is basically a case of the police firing the auditor who found their mistakes because "he found too many".

Re: Chicago fires investigator who found cops at fault in shootings

#45

Post by SerpentJoe »

dragontamer wrote: post #29
mikeash wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is your point, exactly? That we blow police misbehavior out of proportion? That systematic racial discrimination is OK because black people are the ones committing crimes anyway?

Erm, no. He's making a pro-cop argument. You are the one bringing up the race card. The fact remains: cops (and cop supporters) are proud and that's not necessarily a bad thing. I think if people portrayed the arguments and problems with cops in a way that cops (and cop supporters) can keep their pride... life is going to be a lot better. At the end of the day, Cops have more pride in their work than other government…

Police serve the community, not the other way around. No one would ever say "if you want your street sweepers to stop running people over then you need to make sure you respect their pride," because street sweepers, unlike cops, aren't recognized as having the option of refusing to reform.

There's no good reason that reform should be restricted by the need to avoid making cops feel indignant. In exchange for cops obeying the law, we offer nothing whatsoever, including respect for their pride. It's not a negotiation.

Re: Chicago fires investigator who found cops at fault in shootings

#46

Post by CPLX »

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #8

Even though liberals will deny this, the main issue here is that police unions are completely out of control and have this kind of power. The Independent Police Review Authority is full of union stooges, ex-cops, etc and is designed to protect cops. The real question is when will we start having the political will to question public sector unions? They seem to only make city services more expensive, more corrupt, and…

I see no problem with having a police union who considers it their job to aggressively advocate for their membership. That's what unions are for, and frankly most types of workers would be better off with an organization on their side who would advocate tirelessly for them.

I also think accused criminals should have an organization that advocates for them. We can call them public defenders. And so on.

The problem isn't that there is a police union, or even that it's an effective or powerful one, it's that the union should not be in the business of overseeing misconduct investigations, except in a clearly understood adversarial role as an advocate for the accused.

You can throw out insults to liberals and insert your preconceived bias against public sector unions all you want if it serves your political agenda, but at the end of the day nobody rational is arguing in favor of this system, liberals especially so.

Re: Chicago fires investigator who found cops at fault in shootings

#47

Post by mikeash »

dragontamer wrote: post #32
mikeash wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You could look at my ticketing and arrests for the few months I've been on the job and say I do racial profiling cause most of them are [insert what you know it is] cause, from what I can tell, most of them do the things that get them tickets or arrested and put in jail." I am not the one who brought up race.

Point. But in any case, Police pride is a real thing and you need to account for it in your arguments. Otherwise, actual police reform becomes impossible.

I don't really care to coddle the people we entrust with the guns. If their feelings are so easily hurt, then we should fire the lot of them and find new ones who can withstand some words.

I don't think the police actually are this way, not most of them. But if they were, then the answer would be to start over from a clean slate, not try to work around their delicate feelings.

Re: Chicago fires investigator who found cops at fault in shootings

#48

Post by digitalneal »

Lotta people here talking like they understand Chicago politics.

The people who investigate these incidents were appointed to investigate them because City and State agree'd that CPD was unwilling to investigate the misdeeds of their department.

So they setup an Independent review board. Which sounds nice and independent but...(Mayor and CPD friends filled it with former CPD brass or family of former CPD or former consultants to CPD)

Now they are firing investigators because they don't give reports that appease the department.

This is just another feather in the hat of police corruption rolling thru Chicago.

Re: Chicago fires investigator who found cops at fault in shootings

#49

Post by Nadya »

slantyyz wrote: post #35
drzaiusapelord wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is Chicago, we really have no republicans in power. The downvotes are just knee-jerk stupidity because the MSM doesn't report much on union abuse and unions largely get a free pass in the US for political reasons. Democrats won't go after them as they more or less pay for Democratic campaigns.

As a non-American, I find it interesting how so many Americans (especially online commenters) refer to other Americans only as liberal/Democrat or conservative/Republican these days. Is America that polarized? Or, are the people with more complex views (i.e., having both liberal and conservative viewpoints) just less likely to speak out?

The issue with having complex views is that minority opinion doesn't really matter in a democracy. So people gravitate towards one of two largest pieces of the pie and tie their beliefs in to match that pie.

Even if someone subscribes to say "85%" of "most liberal beliefs and ideologies" they're still a liberal/Democrat and will be held to believe 100% of the "commonplace beliefs".

This is why all Republicans are blanket-washed as religious nutcase, global warming denying bigots. While all the Liberals are caricatures of 1984's Thought Police.

Re: Chicago fires investigator who found cops at fault in shootings

#50

Post by Zikes »

theseatoms wrote: post #42
Zikes wrote: post #4

I think it's time we recognized that we are essentially second class citizens, after police. They are consistently able to commit crimes without being prosecuted. They can use their position and influence to target and harass their personal enemies. When they are prosecuted for a crime, the sentencing is consistently far less than a non-LEO offender's. And there's no more recourse for us. When a police officer shows…

Agreed. Though I'm tempted to say that this problem isn't getting worse and that our awareness is only becoming more acute, the existence of digital information increases the potential for abuses of power. (No specific cases come to mind at the moment, but I'd wager that it happens more than occasionally.) So what can we do about it? Record the police. EDIT: Typo..

Recording is a step, however that only addresses a small part of the issue: proof of wrongdoing. Even in clear-cut cases with recordings, such as the Eric Garner incident, it does not seem to lead to real justice. Every other day I'm reading an article about cases where there are no doubts as to the events, but no charges are ever brought.

I think the first thing that needs to be addressed is the lack of independent, third-party mediators, capable of policing the police and enforcing fair and balanced punishments.

Second, we need to address the corruption, collusions, and abuses of power that come from being involved in the justice system. If you are a member of the court or a law enforcement officer and were, e.g. pulled over for a moving violation, there is a very good chance that revealing your profession will result in your release with no record or punishment.

I have sat in a court while my father was being tried for a felony. Since my family are essentially nobodies, there was no one else in the court prior to proceedings beginning except us and the court staff. We listened as the prosecutor spoke in a familiar tone with the various staff in court, including the judge, about a recent vacation he had taken out of state. He mentioned that he was pulled over for speeding, but once he told the officer who he was he was let go, and he was very proud of it. About an hour later, he was calling my father a "monster with no regard for the law".

Post reply on HN