Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet • Hacker News Board

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#91

Post by keedot » Thu, Jul 16, 2015, 5:53 PM UTC

lingben wrote: post #17

itg wrote: post #13

From what i've seen on reddit, twitter, and sometimes even on hn, some are quick to label people whose opinion differs from theirs as trolls. It doesn't matter if it is a polite or well-though out comment, they are quick to shout the word harassment or whatever -ist allows them to hold some moral high ground.

"Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted." - Ralph Waldo Emerson edit: although tangentially relevant, this case in Canada is hair raising: http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/christie-blatchfor...

Christie Blatchford's skew is quite heavy in this reporting. I've seen the other side of the argument with some of the behaviours and tweets in question, and it's not so clear cut. I would definitely feel harassed by this individual, and in Canada, we do not claim to have the free speech as defined in America. Hate speech is not tolerated here, and most Canadians are in agreement with this. You can have a difference of opinion, but if you attack someone with words, there are legal consequences.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#92

Post by escobar » Thu, Jul 16, 2015, 5:53 PM UTC

> I have just endured one of the largest trolling attacks in history.

I feel bad for Ellen and have nothing against her, I don't really go on reddit much. I am aware that she was more or less a scapegoat. But still, for some reason, AND even though the second sentence of the article almost saves face, this statement still bothers me. Sure, she got picked on by reddit quite a bit for lack of transparency, and got thrown under the bus by other high-ranking officials at Reddit.

But to come out and make yourself seem like a champion still illustrates her inflated sense of importance - she's a millionaire exec in an interim position who made mistakes, and got called out in an online forum.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#93

Post by kyoji » Thu, Jul 16, 2015, 5:53 PM UTC

josefresco wrote: post #51

DanBC wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pao had thousands of people calling her a ching-chong cunt. Why do you think your comment is relevant to this thread?

"Pao had thousands of people calling her a ching-chong cunt." Is this a known/established fact? I see in the article a paragraph about how she received thousands of positive notes/emails but nothing about the # or volume of hate. It may not be documented here, but I'm curious if it was actually as widespread as implied.

The front page of Reddit was littered with derogatory Pao posts for days on end following the shutdown of /r/fph and firing of Victoria. I'm sure she also received a large amount of private hate messages too.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#94

Post by ETSmith » Thu, Jul 16, 2015, 5:53 PM UTC

itg wrote: post #13

From what i've seen on reddit, twitter, and sometimes even on hn, some are quick to label people whose opinion differs from theirs as trolls. It doesn't matter if it is a polite or well-though out comment, they are quick to shout the word harassment or whatever -ist allows them to hold some moral high ground.

It's not just about mislabeling, or false accusations. There is a certain element of hypocrisy, too.

A demonstration of this is in the article:

"In May, the company banned harassment of individuals from the site. Last month, we took down sections of the site that drew repeat harassers. Then, after making these policy changes to prevent and ban harassment, I, along with several colleagues, was targeted with harassing messages, attempts to post my private information online and death threats. These were attempts to demean, shame and scare us into silence."

On one hand, these people affiliated with reddit did not appreciate these alleged "attempts to demean, shame and scare us into silence" when they were the recipients.

Yet these same people were perfectly willing, and perhaps even proud, to silence other reddit users, whether at an individual level or by eliminating entire subreddits.

In fact, the article in this case could very well be seen as an attempt to "demean, shame and scare" the alleged "trolls" into silence. It engages in the sort of behavior that it is deeming as unacceptable!

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#95

Post by angersock » Thu, Jul 16, 2015, 5:53 PM UTC

Ugh.

But that balancing act is getting harder. The trolls are winning.

The success of the original balancing act was that there wasn't one--it was an open platform, it was a loose federation, and it was decentralized. By creating these massive walled gardens and trying to monetize them, companies like Reddit have suddenly had to take a stand.

Short surprise that they're running into problems that didn't exist before they decided to create these massive platforms. If you democratize access to mass point-to-point communications, guess what? By definition, half of your users are of below average empathy and responsibility.

But to attract more mainstream audiences and bring in the big-budget advertisers, you must hide or remove the ugly.

Gentrification of the Internet.

As the threats became really violent, people ended their messages with “stay safe.”

Threats can be graphic, not violent--if they're violent, they're not threats.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#96

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, Jul 16, 2015, 5:53 PM UTC

danielweber wrote: post #89

dimino wrote: post #56

Trolls used to mean (and I think still does mean) a person who attempts to voice an opinion they don't hold with the intent of invoking a negative reaction out of someone else. Most of the folks spewing bile at Ellen Pao probably don't actually hate her, but can't help seeing their actions have an effect. Trolls don't win if you ignore them -- the shitshow that's been Reddit this past month is almost entirely because…

http://www.flamewarriorsguide.com/warriorshtm/troller.htm It referred to trolling the way fishermen troll for fish. It didn't really have anything to do with the "ogre" definition of troll, but that's what it means in most people's minds now.

That's kind of what happens when you noun a verb that is already a noun with a very different meaning.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#97

Post by istvan__ » Thu, Jul 16, 2015, 5:53 PM UTC

partiallypro wrote: post #74

I'm going to disagree. I've been in IRC, Forums, Newsgroups, lurked 4Chan, Reddit, and Slashdot for years. It has actually been evolving to a point, especially among the younger crowd to get bent out of shape about essentially nothing. Maybe that is because more of our lives are online than before, but if you were to go through Twitter and Tumblr and just browse around it is a huge mess of people constantly being off…

This is exactly right. Reasoning ends when the feelings start. I am not even sure if I understand -btw. usually attributed to religious people- the concept of getting offended. If somebody says something you don't like and you don't want to hear just walk away, close the tab, delete the email.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#98

Post by lcswi » Thu, Jul 16, 2015, 5:53 PM UTC

ewzimm wrote: post #57

lcswi wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thousands of people? Where did you get that number from? Also, there were (misguided) reasons for people to be upset, which does not justify the racism, but hey, extreme insults are normal if you are very angry (no, not just on the Internet but also outside tech filter bubbles).

Nobody is debating that extreme insults are normal when people get angry. What people are saying is that it needs to stop being normal.

I totally support that, but the Internet is probably the worst and hardest place to try initiate that change.

Opposed to the real world, wannabe bullies have zero chance of seeing a reaction from their victims if those do not react. Online bullies like there DO lose their interest. Just look at past outrages on reddit to see. People need to despise that these short-term hype shitstorms are not worth reacting to'. Maybe ask PR campaigners how they handle it, there should be decades of research.

I am obviously excluding actual stalkers, sociopaths etc. Those are hard problems but not one you can as easily treat and not a widespread problem.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#99

Post by curiousjorge » Thu, Jul 16, 2015, 5:54 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #24

itg wrote: post #13

From what i've seen on reddit, twitter, and sometimes even on hn, some are quick to label people whose opinion differs from theirs as trolls. It doesn't matter if it is a polite or well-though out comment, they are quick to shout the word harassment or whatever -ist allows them to hold some moral high ground.

Pao had thousands of people calling her a ching-chong cunt. Why do you think your comment is relevant to this thread?

What makes you think that kind of vulgar racial slur (even if it's a reference) is excusable? By referencing it you've added to that voice.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#100

Post by tzs » Thu, Jul 16, 2015, 5:54 PM UTC

wxs wrote: post #35

itg wrote: post #13

From what i've seen on reddit, twitter, and sometimes even on hn, some are quick to label people whose opinion differs from theirs as trolls. It doesn't matter if it is a polite or well-though out comment, they are quick to shout the word harassment or whatever -ist allows them to hold some moral high ground.

Did you see the front page of Reddit when they were blowing up at Pao over the fat people abuse subreddit? I think it's disingenuous to claim that this is just polite disagreement: http://cdn0.dailydot.com/uploaded/images/original/2015/6/10/...

The submitted article is about the state of trolling in general. It uses Pao's own experience as one particular example.

When he says that the "troll" label is overly used, that does not mean he is claiming it was inappropriate in any particular case, such as when applied to what was directed at Pao.