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Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#31

Post by lhnz »

Does anybody remember when trolling was a term used to describe an activity in which users wielding enough understanding of other's perspectives would attempt to give other's cognitive dissonance?

It seems that one of the most powerful online political classes have lumped hatred and abuse in with disagreement, mockery and satire.

I don't think it's good for the conversation between the group of user's that dislike where Reddit and other big social media sites are headed and the people that are taking them there.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#32

Post by bkjelden »

DanBC wrote: post #6
wxs wrote: post #2

I just posted this in the earlier submission[1], but I'll put it here too: I really worry that if we don't find a way to fix the abuse problem, pseudonymity online will be looked back on by future generations as our time's Klan hood. Abuse stories like these make me embarrassed to support any form of privacy online. Platforms need to take a stand and find a way reduce hate and abuse, or public opinion (and my own) wi…

People are just as hateful under their real names. The Facebook ad featuring a Sikh artist got a lot of really unpleasant comments from people using their real identities. I don't think anyone suggests the Youtube comments were any better after real-name policy.

Facebook's userbase is so large, many users are functionally anonymous.

Before online communities, most people interacted in social circles small enough that their identity actually meant something to the other participants.

But on widely circulated/public posts on facebook, the audience is so large, that "John Doe from Indiana" might as well be anonymous.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#33

Post by ra1n85 »

wxs wrote: post #2

I just posted this in the earlier submission[1], but I'll put it here too: I really worry that if we don't find a way to fix the abuse problem, pseudonymity online will be looked back on by future generations as our time's Klan hood. Abuse stories like these make me embarrassed to support any form of privacy online. Platforms need to take a stand and find a way reduce hate and abuse, or public opinion (and my own) wi…

>Abuse stories like these make me embarrassed to support any form of privacy online

I don't feel embarrassed to support free speech when I see it abused.

Your line of thought would have us all registered with the state before we could use the internet - a tragic outcome that some on this planet are already subjected to.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#34

Post by existencebox »

DanBC wrote: post #6
wxs wrote: post #2

I just posted this in the earlier submission[1], but I'll put it here too: I really worry that if we don't find a way to fix the abuse problem, pseudonymity online will be looked back on by future generations as our time's Klan hood. Abuse stories like these make me embarrassed to support any form of privacy online. Platforms need to take a stand and find a way reduce hate and abuse, or public opinion (and my own) wi…

People are just as hateful under their real names. The Facebook ad featuring a Sikh artist got a lot of really unpleasant comments from people using their real identities. I don't think anyone suggests the Youtube comments were any better after real-name policy.

Quite to the contrary, in fact. One of the big learnings from the Google real names policy was that people are JUST as willing to be terrible under their real names.

What I think it is, if I may hypothesize, is merely that there is fundamentally no incentive to NOT be however you want on the internet. 9 times out of 10 nothing you say will be traced back to you, or will reflect on any aspect of your day to day life. I consider the internet a window into the uninhibited mindset of the average person, and that although we may find it distasteful, to censor it would be paramount to burying our heads in the sand about our own nature.

What's worrying is that rather than find avenues to deal with it in reasonable or moderated fashion, the narratives often seem to shift to the most extreme and often dogmatic-seeming angles, more as talking points than measured response.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#35

Post by wxs »

itg wrote: post #13

From what i've seen on reddit, twitter, and sometimes even on hn, some are quick to label people whose opinion differs from theirs as trolls. It doesn't matter if it is a polite or well-though out comment, they are quick to shout the word harassment or whatever -ist allows them to hold some moral high ground.

Did you see the front page of Reddit when they were blowing up at Pao over the fat people abuse subreddit? I think it's disingenuous to claim that this is just polite disagreement: http://cdn0.dailydot.com/uploaded/images/original/2015/6/10/...

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#36

Post by lemevi »

tdees40 wrote: post #22
brotoss wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You just defined SJW

SJW is just a lazy slur. It's time to retire it.

It's too bad that this type of comment and the one above it are going to kill any meaningful discussion about this interesting and important topic. To quote Sam Altman[1]:

> Most smart people I know have decided to just not discuss anything sensitive because of the internet lynchmob looking for any slight mistake

> This seems unlikely to be a good development. At some point the conversations will only have the extremists left.

We need to talk about this, but without heavy moderation which will introduce a different set of problems, I don't see how.

[1] https://twitter.com/sama/status/610494599526641665

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#37

Post by andrewstuart2 »

DanBC wrote: post #6
wxs wrote: post #2

I just posted this in the earlier submission[1], but I'll put it here too: I really worry that if we don't find a way to fix the abuse problem, pseudonymity online will be looked back on by future generations as our time's Klan hood. Abuse stories like these make me embarrassed to support any form of privacy online. Platforms need to take a stand and find a way reduce hate and abuse, or public opinion (and my own) wi…

People are just as hateful under their real names. The Facebook ad featuring a Sikh artist got a lot of really unpleasant comments from people using their real identities. I don't think anyone suggests the Youtube comments were any better after real-name policy.

I would hypothesize that the correlation is that a pseudonym increases your sense of invincibility.

If you already think there will be no ramifications of friends/people knowing your opinion, then a pseudonym doesn't give you much incremental benefit.

If, however, the potential ramifications are great, a pseudonym does a lot to distance the ramifications from you individually.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#39

Post by MrDosu »

People like to gossip and trashtalk. We can act like it is not human nature and philosophize about ideal conversation, but one look at the afternoon TV programme will quickly convince you otherwise.

Imo the way forward is not demonizing either social group, but to give each their own forum for expression. The word 'troll' is an extremely slippery slope...

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