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Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

nytimes.com

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Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#781

Post by ceejayoz »

enraged_camel wrote: post #559
ceejayoz wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> More than 200k signed, so you're off by a factor of 10. So half a percent of the userbase or so? I'd call that a vocal minority. http://www.redditblog.com/2015/06/happy-10th-birthday-to-us-... > I don't think she was ever going to get back the community's confidence. Likely true. Backing down here likely means zero chance of addressing toxic communities in the site for the foreseeable future.

>>So half a percent of the userbase or so? I'd call that a vocal minority. By that logic, the people who protested during the Civil Rights movement were also a vocal minority. Doesn't make their grievances any less valid.

They were a vocal minority. So's the KKK.

This is why I'm contesting the idea that "a grassroots campaign" is evidence that someone was in the wrong. It's merely evidence that some people had an opinion about the situation.

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#782

Post by swores »

chipotle_coyote wrote: post #224
kozukumi wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given her previous record with going after past employers I think Sam was just covering his back from a potential lawsuit.

Given her previous record with going after past employers If I'm not mistaken, that's a record of one, unless you know something the rest of us don't about her time at Cravath Swaine & Moore, WebTV, BEA Systems, TellMe or Danger.

There are some people willing to go after a previous employer for treating them badly and other people who would rather let it go so as to not create a PR mess for yourself / when it comes to future jobs.

Pao has a track record that shows she's in the first group. I'm not saying that should automatically get people to treat her differently, but it's enough of a "track record" for some people, regardless of the record having one data point on it.

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#783

Post by corin_ »

kolbe wrote: post #240
return0 wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

E. Pao and Brendan Eich are the two polar examples why the word 'harassment' has lost its meaning.

Ha. Maybe we need language to evolve the way we now have "rape" and "rape rape." I propose "harassment" and "har-fucking-rassment."

Not sure what circles you hang around with if you often find the need to differentiate between different levels of rape..

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#784

Post by PavlovsCat »

keedot wrote: post #770
nathanvanfleet wrote: post #767

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free speech is between you and the government. If a company that runs a forum says it bans people for abusive comments there's nothing to do with free speech. We see with Reddit that the ugliest users are the ones that are the loudest and drown out everyone else.

You're correct, it's an ignorant argument, and I see it posted all over the place. I wish America had a better education system, because it drowns out the real conversations that should be happening around free speech. You have the right to say whatever you want, you do not have the right to say it in my home. I'm curious as to whether or not these individuals understand this, or are just another level of troll tryin…

> you do not have the right to say it in my home.

Furthermore, I do have the right to say it "in public".

But, where is that "public" on the internet? I can make a website - a home - and invite other people to come visit me and listen to me ramble, or respond etc. But there is no public space, is there? And if not, should there be?

Most people don't own the homes they live in. Yet the landlord still doesn't get to tell them what to talk about over the dinner table. That's great, but imagine the government sold all sidewalks and public places to private interests, which dictated how you should dress and walk if you want to get out of your home, or to work. Should that be allowed?

Imagine getting thrown out of a mall because someone overheard and disapproved of your conversation there. Does that ever happen? I know there there is no clear line, but that there is one; e.g. if you trail other people and talk to yourself or a friend about them (especially if it's nasty and aggressive) in earshot, that's not exactly cool. But what, other than sanity, would stop all mall owners to agree that anyone e.g. declaring to like the color green should be kicked out, and to hire staff to enforce it? Would that be legal? If it was, should it be? And if it wouldn't be legal, why is that? In what ways, if at all, could or should this applied to the internet?

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#785

Post by dropit_sphere »

vacri wrote: post #749
benihana wrote: post #725

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These persons life aren't at risk because they can't express opinions, isn't that what is meant by FoS ? No. That's the exact opposite of free speech. Free speech is meant to protect the most disgusting, heinous, pointless, hateful, ignorant, foolish speech. That's the whole freaking point - nobody wants to silence unoffensive opinions. > ps: I'll add that I was somehow afraid to express my views on Freedom of Spee…

> Free speech is meant to protect the most disgusting, heinous, pointless, hateful, ignorant, foolish speech. No it's not. It's meant to protect speech which the politically powerful find objectionable. It's not about protecting abuse, but protecting ideas . Rebellious and revolutionary ideas, for example. This is all a canard anyway - Reddit is not the (US) government. They get to set the rules for communication in…

>It's meant to protect speech which the politically powerful find objectionable. It's not about protecting abuse, but protecting ideas.

The loophole, then, is to define ideas the politically powerful find objectionable as abuse.

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#786

Post by curiousjorge »

antirez wrote: post #434
curiousjorge wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he was just being polite but then who knows, we don't get to see what's going on behind the scenes, we just see the outcome of their decisions.

To say the contrary of what you think is not being polite, is a stupid communication rule that in other places of the world would just make things more complex to understand. There is the possibility to just express what you think in a balanced way. One can just say: she tried to fix a complex problem, that many experiences in the past proved to be very hard to fix. And she is stepping down now after the recent happe…

I'd agree for the most part but especially in North America, there is a culture of beating around the bush and most people avoid confrontation or directly addressing the problem of course unless the other person has an inability to recognize the issue. I'd say even for someone who has a large stake in a publicly visible company, it'd be tough to break that mold even more.

I agree that it could've been better worded without coming out as blunt or being overly polite and politically correct. But then again, Ellen Pao sued her former employer based on questionable grounds (gender bias cried the wolf) and timing (her husband is bankrupt after scamming investors).

If I was in Sam's position, I'd be careful not to awaken the bees nest and just hope that the cold season comes and they all die.

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#787

Post by camelite »

arrrg wrote: post #720
zmb_ wrote: post #715

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I personally respect freedom of speech, except hate. The problem is that as soon as you draw such a line, you need to appoint a censor to determine what qualifies as "hate". As Christopher Hitchens asked: "To whom would you want to delegate the task to decide for you what you could read? To relieve you of the responsibility of hearing what you might have to hear?" Typically this job falls to the public prosecutors.…

Counterpoint: Censorship is awesome. It creates and shapes places that are just great and pleasant all around. Being an excellent censor is a great ability and there are sadly way too few out there who can give a clear voice (not in the sense of being one voice, necessarily, though that can also be great!) to something and be really excellently opinionated about their censorship. I want more great censorship, not les…

> Counterpoint: Censorship is awesome.

Well it's crucial that the censors are people who like you. If they didn't like you, you probably wouldn't be such a fan of censorship. That is to say, the only reason you're in favour of censorship on reddit is that you're reasonably that the censors will be people like you, which really is no more than sophisticated tribalism.

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#788

Post by rorykoehler »

nindalf wrote: post #606
rorykoehler wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The childish and aggressive level of communication on Reddit led me to discover Hacker News while in search of quality and informed discussion. Admittedly I also use Reddit but more and more it has become a curiosity to see how people act when they think no one will know it's them. Occasionally I also engage in rewarding exchanges there but the few loud, brash and opinionated (but not well informed) users in the subr…

I think the subreddit system is a good way of categorising content and more importantly, behaviour. People are talking a lot about misogyny but its possible to avoid all the drama if you simply subscribe to smaller, more interesting, well moderated subs. I kept up with my favourite books, video games and other interests like history without being interrupted by Pao hate. I think HN is great too. The knowledge of some…

Yes. The smaller subreddits that make up most of my subscriptions are fine (programming languages etc) but the larger ones have a very high noise to signal ratio.

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#789

Post by camelite »

arrrg wrote: post #771
growupkids wrote: post #745

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps I'm missing something. How would you know if someone is an excellent censor (I.e. They only censor "bad" speech, and not "good" speech) if then intent is to shield you from the "bad" speech. Wouldn't you then not know what they censored? Specifically, it seems to me that if you're shielded from seeing that they censored, then they could also be censoring "good" speech too. So the only way it seems you could e…

I don’t. I just accept that sometimes I just cannot know the absolute truth and that’s that. But I do have the ability to trust people and I know when I enjoy something. So, this all might sound very abstract, but I do know that I like the censors (they call themselves editors) working for certain newspapers I like. I trust them to make good decisions, partly just because I don’t have time to make those decisions mys…

> Sometime you just don’t know. Sometimes you just have to live with that. I live with it and I like it.

Honestly, this comes across as "He loved Big Brother"-level creepy.

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#790

Post by knodi123 »

geofft wrote: post #307
knodi123 wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is part of the scandal around her. It's not out of left field.

Sure, but is it part of the scandal around the KPCB partner who had the affair with her? It takes two to tango.

I'm sure that if he were in any way relevant to the conversation, then his affair would come up in conversation. But he's not, so let's not wander down that rabbit hole.
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