Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief • Hacker News Board

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#661

Post by vacri » Sat, Jul 11, 2015, 4:47 AM UTC

axlprose wrote: post #624

vacri wrote: post #617

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, just because the GP didn't elaborate reasons for the comparison does not make your strawman not a strawman. You put words into badsock's mouth, and then applied shame for things badsock didn't say. "This reminds me of gamergate" is not "any criticism of any journalistic ethics anywhere", period. Similarly, my 'there are parallels' and your 'huxley and orwell' aren't the same. You say that it's pointless to presen…

The only thing I am saying, is that even mentioning negative events such as gamergate, triggers in readers the negative connotations associated with them, and it is a common tactic to sully opponent's arguments for that reason. So when possible, it is good to avoid those kinds of unproductive remarks unless there's a good tie-in, which so far there hasn't been, and I already elaborated on why it doesn't make any sens…

> even mentioning [negativity]... So when possible, it is good to avoid those kinds of unproductive remarks unless there's a good tie-in

So then why are you shaming people with snarky remarks about Orwell? You say you aren't a hypocrite, yet you're doing exactly the thing you say shouldn't be done?

Anyway, I'm tired and bored, and couldn't be bothered reading more of your efforts to somehow argue that a widespread shrill grassroots online hate campaign over 'media ethics'; a female target; based on faulty, incomplete data; in the internet political culture specific to the current time... should put absolutely no-one in mind of gamergate ahead of any other particular event. The two events apparently share no commonalities. You're using me as a sort of playing field for the academic parlour-game of seeing if you can spin-doctor the way out, and frankly, I couldn't be fucked continuing.

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#662

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jul 11, 2015, 4:50 AM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #594

multinglets wrote: post #588

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If she weren't a woman, I would be tempted to say it's almost . . . It's almost like she just sucked at her job and the public backlash and getting fired were both predictable consequences of that fact.

Let's say she sucked at her job. Let the org fire her. These actions were the result of thought that they needed to heed public opinion. As if officers need to walk on eggshells. What should matter ate results rather than dictated by the winds of public opinion. I wish the board, management, etc. in these situations would who resolve and say, no, sorry, this is our choice, we stand by it. But no, we see them capitula…

[deleted]

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#663

Post by vehementi » Sat, Jul 11, 2015, 4:51 AM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #655

vehementi wrote: post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nevermind misogyny etc., you're pointing to two incidents of unknown magnitude (because you lack the data internal to the company) among an unknown number of other things she's handled and you claim she's failed as a CEO? That is ridiculously uninformed.

The so-called misogynists (I'm of the opinion that much of the brutal words written about her were a large part tongue-in-cheek, deliberate over the top absurdity, not that that excuses it) are a part of reddit. You can't just say "I shouldn't have to deal with this". Besides, these people have always been there and haven't caused any large scale problems, and they didn't when Ellen was appointed (which is when they…

I didn't mean to take a position on the misogyny part. I just meant leaving that question aside completely, the point was woefully incomplete.

You seem to have a basic misunderstanding of why FPH was banned - it wasn't because of offensive/hateful content like /r/coontown; it was because of active off-site harassment & brigading that the mods couldn't control.

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#664

Post by albinofrenchy » Sat, Jul 11, 2015, 4:55 AM UTC

vehementi wrote: post #639

albinofrenchy wrote: post #607

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because you don't have internal proprietary data doesn't mean you cant have a rational opinion on the matter. That is a ridiculous standard. The Victoria thing was a monumental cluster fuck in one of the most outward facing facets of the company.

Okay, and how many wins did Pao have? In your "wins and fuckups" columns that you surely made prior to the post, "fuckups" includes the Victoria thing and whatever else. What is in your "wins" column (internal company initiatives, key hires, process changes, etc.) that were appropriately weighed in order to come to your rational opinion that she has overall failed as a CEO?

Unless your assertion is that all of her wins were kept secret, and the public record shouldn't be trusted, they are very few.

Some hires and the chilling effects thing are maybe the biggest unambiguous positive developments. The subreddit banning and the salary negotiations thing were received with mixed opinion, but even if you agree with what was banned, the handling of it was questionable and seemed very rushed.

And then there was last week, which derailed the site over a weekend and made national news outlets for the whole week. A lot of details about internal dealings came to light, and none of them particularly painted reddit in a good light. There is no plausible way the amount of good shes done in the last 10-12 months outweighed the massive damage that was inflicted.

It is also worth noting that the people who do have access to a lot of internal information about the inner workings of reddit 'mutually' agreed that she shouldn't be the CEO. Undoubtedly the backlash -- some of it misguided -- played into this, but frankly a large part of being the CEO of a community-based site is PR.

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#665

Post by sidcool » Sat, Jul 11, 2015, 4:59 AM UTC

Patrick_Devine wrote: post #47

nhf wrote: post #10

I think this was the right thing to do from a PR perspective. Having Steve back as the new CEO will definitely be good for the community. I also applaud Reddit's announcement for calling the community out on their childish BS: > As a closing note, it was sickening to see some of the things redditors wrote about Ellen. [1] The reduction in compassion that happens when we’re all behind computer screens is not good for…

As an occasional user of reddit, this whole ordeal has confirmed the reason why I prefer not to hang out in its forums. I have no idea whether Ellen was a capable CEO, but the vitriol which I kept seeing peripherally (through other news articles and here on HN) was absolutely appalling.

People behind internet coffers are quite nasty, even cruel at times. I guess that's what human nature is. Power corrupts anyone and everyone.

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#666

Post by mirimir » Sat, Jul 11, 2015, 5:02 AM UTC

generic_user wrote: post #382

joshjkim wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sam and the board are happy and pleased with her performance because she played the part of the suit pushing an over-corporate monetization-focused agenda and then eventually was offered up as a "sacrifice to the reddit ideals", and at the same time she moved the goal posts entirely so now the new CEO and board can "scale back" Ellen's initiatives but only part way, therefore simultaneously putting them in a more mon…

With reddit gold most of Reddit has no problem with Reddit making money if they do it the right way. But if it means censoring content and speech and changing the community interaction that is totally unacceptable. I see the backlash against Pao as a reaction to the wrong type of monetization form the communities perspective. Done by a CEO that seems to not have much of an understanding of what Reddit means to the pe…

Google tells me that Reddit gold revenue remains small relative to ad revenue.

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#667

Post by vehementi » Sat, Jul 11, 2015, 5:09 AM UTC

albinofrenchy wrote: post #664

vehementi wrote: post #639

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, and how many wins did Pao have? In your "wins and fuckups" columns that you surely made prior to the post, "fuckups" includes the Victoria thing and whatever else. What is in your "wins" column (internal company initiatives, key hires, process changes, etc.) that were appropriately weighed in order to come to your rational opinion that she has overall failed as a CEO?

Unless your assertion is that all of her wins were kept secret, and the public record shouldn't be trusted, they are very few. Some hires and the chilling effects thing are maybe the biggest unambiguous positive developments. The subreddit banning and the salary negotiations thing were received with mixed opinion, but even if you agree with what was banned, the handling of it was questionable and seemed very rushed.…

Yes, most of her wins were surely kept internal because most company things are not made public as a matter of course.

No plausible way the day to day internal changes / hirings / firings that you are not privy to have had a balancing effect on this? What was your methodology in assessing the damage that the blackout caused to reddit that you used to measure against the good she could have plausibly caused in order to form your rational opinion? A cursory look at https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/about/traffic does not seem to indicate any lasting impact.

It is not worth noting that random employees (actually, not random: ones who' have enough of an axe to grind that they'll risk their job to break NDA) think a CEO is bad. That is the case at almost every company, small and large. Find me one where you can't find 2 employees that agree there should be a different CEO etc.

Sorry but we are looking at it from a necessarily uninformed outsider's perspective so we can't possibly have a meaningful opinion on whether she was an effective CEO.

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#668

Post by remarkEon » Sat, Jul 11, 2015, 5:10 AM UTC

nopenopeyep wrote: post #653

ThomPete wrote: post #590

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the moderation is part of what keeps it a fairly enjoyable experience still IMO.

That's irrelevant to my comment. However, I don't think you have any evidence to support your assumption. As I expected: downvoted for pointing out the truth. HN is terrible.

Haven't been around here long, but this place seems to me to be much better than reddit for what I'm looking for. To each his/her own, I guess, but so much of reddit was such utter and total shit for so long that the enjoyment evaporated.

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#669

Post by pvnick » Sat, Jul 11, 2015, 5:12 AM UTC

jrs99 wrote: post #414

spinlock wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that's a stretch. if the intent is to create a sarcastic nick-name that compares the ceo to a dictator, "chairman pao" is going to be a front-runner not because pao and mao are both chinese but because pao and mao are only 1 letter different from each other.

Regardless of the intention, they ARE both chinese. So is it really a stretch to see a racist element to this nick name? It is racist by default. I'm not saying that it is a greatly offensive nickname or even unfunny, but for someone to call it racist is not at all a stretch.

Give it a rest

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#670

Post by axlprose » Sat, Jul 11, 2015, 5:25 AM UTC

vacri wrote: post #661

axlprose wrote: post #624

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only thing I am saying, is that even mentioning negative events such as gamergate, triggers in readers the negative connotations associated with them, and it is a common tactic to sully opponent's arguments for that reason. So when possible, it is good to avoid those kinds of unproductive remarks unless there's a good tie-in, which so far there hasn't been, and I already elaborated on why it doesn't make any sens…

> even mentioning [negativity]... So when possible, it is good to avoid those kinds of unproductive remarks unless there's a good tie-in So then why are you shaming people with snarky remarks about Orwell? You say you aren't a hypocrite, yet you're doing exactly the thing you say shouldn't be done? Anyway, I'm tired and bored, and couldn't be bothered reading more of your efforts to somehow argue that a widespread sh…

I did admit wrong on the orwell part, but you seem to be taking this quite personally to be releasing that kind of frustration out so needlessly without even addressing any of my points. If anything, that shows you have clear bias there, but I need not point it out very much, for your frustration with this debate should've made that quite clear by now. Strong emotions always cloud analytical thinking. And it doesn't matter what arguments anybody may propose to you if you have already made up your mind that much, so arguing under the guise of objectivity or logical correctness is quite disingenuous.