Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief • Hacker News Board

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#601

Post by Natsu » Sat, Jul 11, 2015, 2:29 AM UTC

jarfil wrote: post #552

dmfdmf wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At last, a voice of reason in hundreds of pointless comments. Free speech is a principle and people should be free to say whatever they want no matter how disgusting or distasteful to the majority or mainstream. This is the ideal of a free society and people who can't make the distinction between supporting the principle and yet rejecting the advocates of idiocy are implicitly advocating some form of government censo…

Freedom of speech != freedom to force anyone to listen to you. As long as you are free to create your own community where you can say whatever you want, there is no need for any other community to listen to you.

As I understand it, the founding fathers cast it more as "freedom to listen" rather than freedom of speech.

And it's certainly understandable that Reddit has no wish to be associated with certain speech, but that comes with troubling implications as well. For example, do they not then appear to support whatever they do not ban if we know that whatever sufficiently offends them gets the ban hammer?

For another example, take Google removing Confederate flags. I personally hate that damned flag and would be perfectly happy to join others in burning one to express my feelings about it, but I'm loathe to go around removing them. Please understand that I'm perfectly happy if a few get taken down where they appear that some governmental branch was endorsing it.

But at the same time, that's not quite the same as when Google goes about removing them. Sure, they are free to do as they wish, I have to wonder why Google doesn't do the same for Nazi symbols? Surely they don't support Nazis, but it's hard to make a case for not giving the Nazis the same treatment. They're at least as evil, right? So what explanations are left to us for the disparity? That Nazis don't offend googlers as much? That doesn't seem like a likely reason, but just what's left?

And in the end, where does that leave us? The problem is, I don't think that train of thought has an end, and that's what makes me uneasy. After we remove everything offensive, what's left? It's not like we'll have things that don't offend anybody, so at some point it becomes a matter of choosing which people are okay to offend and which people are not okay to offend.

In the end, I just want to get along with everyone. I don't like the thought of living in a society where everything becomes a matter of whether you are one of Us or one of Them and that's where we appear to be heading.

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#602

Post by nindalf » Sat, Jul 11, 2015, 2:31 AM UTC

jellicle wrote: post #406

Nadya wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This? https://i.imgur.com/nrYiK5M.png I find it telling it was negative a majority of the time. Usually "mods" get +1'd just for being mods (common on many forums). It shows, to me at least, that what she said rarely was supported by the community.

It shows to me that she was dogged by misogynists and MRAs excited by the discrimination lawsuit, from the start of her Reddit tenure through to the end. In a similar fashion, if Barack Obama posted something like "Mom and apple pie are both great.", it would be downvoted by his political foes and upvoted by his political allies. That should not be taken as an indication that "the community" opposes or disagrees with…

I see a lot of comments like yours claiming that the hate was only because she's a minority. I get the feeling such people find it unacceptable to dislike a woman or a black/Asian person regardless of what they did.

I disliked her for

* Firing Victoria, who took AMAs to the next level. I enjoyed them a ton.

* Firing an employee for having leukemia - http://redd.it/3c0idl

* Using corporate weasel words instead of having the guts to be honest - "We're banning behaviour, not ideas"

* Treating the community with disdain and contempt, while not understanding how reddit works at all. She derided her detractors as being a very tiny minority without realising that the most active people are the ones creating and moderating the content that helps reddit thrive. If these people are unhappy with her and leave, then the passive majority (such as myself) will follow them to wherever they go.

But no, I'm probably a misogynist and a racist who hates Ellen Pao because she lost a gender discrimination lawsuit, amirite?

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#603

Post by bsder » Sat, Jul 11, 2015, 2:33 AM UTC

notsony wrote: post #44

> Sam Altman, a member of Reddit’s board, said he personally appreciated Ms. Pao’s efforts during her two years working at the start-up. “Ellen has done a phenomenal job, especially in the last few months,” he said. This is clearly nonsense, otherwise there wouldn't have been a grassroots campaign to remove Ellen Pao from her role. If Sam Altman honestly believes that Ellen did a "phenomenal" job, he should reconside…

What? Do you expect Sam to slag her publicly? When was the last time any corporate board slagged a resigning CEO publicly?

Sheesh.

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#604

Post by geofft » Sat, Jul 11, 2015, 2:33 AM UTC

city41 wrote: post #320

colinbartlett wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been a heavy reddit user for 8 years and I did not know about this until I read about it in the New York Times. It's really a small subset of the reddits that were touched by the entire ordeal.

It completely and totally dominated /r/all for days, even weeks. /r/all is an aggregate of the most popular posts for the entire site, so I disagree only a small subset were affected. Maybe in number of subreddits, but the subreddits that were affected are absolutely gigantic.

I'm not subscribed to any of the default subreddits; I imagine very many long-time users are the same way. I never read /r/all precisely because it's an aggregate of posts on subreddits I don't care about.

In particular, I'm subscribed to no general-purpose or wide-purpose subreddits. A few city/geographic subreddits mentioned it in passing, but, like, /r/programming or /r/nycbike or /r/radicalchristianity are going to treat any post about it as off-topic. You can't just post an advice animal about it, or request IAmAs from everyone involved, or say that today you learned whatever-it-may-be about Ellen Pao, or what have you. Nor can you do this about any other topic, which is why I bother to read these subreddits.

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#605

Post by scrollaway » Sat, Jul 11, 2015, 2:36 AM UTC

rcxdude wrote: post #480

eli wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's jarring -- that is, newsworthy -- to see overt sexist or racist remarks with hundreds of upvotes, suggesting at least widespread if not majority support. So, yeah, that fact is going to find its way into many articles. What is the argument against Pao anyway? It seems like the only non-personal complaints I've heard are that FatPeopleHate was banned and a well-liked moderator was fired on her watch. Is there mor…

>It's jarring -- that is, newsworthy -- to see overt sexist or racist remarks with hundreds of upvotes, suggesting at least widespread if not majority support. So, yeah, that fact is going to find its way into many articles. There is a polarising effect which occurs in these kinds of threads (or communities discussions as a whole): once the vitriol has met a critical mass the more moderate people tend to just avoid t…

Well said; there's a very strong snowball effect on online forums, which instant communication amplifies greatly.

Especially "the last guy said x, so x+1 is ok to say", followed by "the last guy said x+1, so x+2 is ok to say".

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#606

Post by nindalf » Sat, Jul 11, 2015, 2:37 AM UTC

rorykoehler wrote: post #246

nhf wrote: post #10

I think this was the right thing to do from a PR perspective. Having Steve back as the new CEO will definitely be good for the community. I also applaud Reddit's announcement for calling the community out on their childish BS: > As a closing note, it was sickening to see some of the things redditors wrote about Ellen. [1] The reduction in compassion that happens when we’re all behind computer screens is not good for…

The childish and aggressive level of communication on Reddit led me to discover Hacker News while in search of quality and informed discussion. Admittedly I also use Reddit but more and more it has become a curiosity to see how people act when they think no one will know it's them. Occasionally I also engage in rewarding exchanges there but the few loud, brash and opinionated (but not well informed) users in the subr…

I think the subreddit system is a good way of categorising content and more importantly, behaviour. People are talking a lot about misogyny but its possible to avoid all the drama if you simply subscribe to smaller, more interesting, well moderated subs. I kept up with my favourite books, video games and other interests like history without being interrupted by Pao hate.

I think HN is great too. The knowledge of some of the commenters here can be very educational.

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#607

Post by albinofrenchy » Sat, Jul 11, 2015, 2:37 AM UTC

vehementi wrote: post #518

fredkbloggs wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, exactly. Also, firing someone without some kind of plan for redistributing her duties is a Management 101 no-no. Ellen Pao failed as CEO of Reddit. That has nothing to do with the 1% or whatever of Reddit users who are racists and/or misogynists. That's just the real world; you have to get past the obnoxious idiots and focus on what matters. The reason Ms. Pao was fired (let's be honest) is that she failed to m…

Nevermind misogyny etc., you're pointing to two incidents of unknown magnitude (because you lack the data internal to the company) among an unknown number of other things she's handled and you claim she's failed as a CEO? That is ridiculously uninformed.

Just because you don't have internal proprietary data doesn't mean you cant have a rational opinion on the matter. That is a ridiculous standard. The Victoria thing was a monumental cluster fuck in one of the most outward facing facets of the company.

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#608

Post by x3n0ph3n3 » Sat, Jul 11, 2015, 2:38 AM UTC

golergka wrote: post #304

lingben wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything about their saga is bizarre. Did you know that up until his marriage to Ellen, Buddy had lived as a homosexual? he was living with a partner of multiple years (Hobart “Bo” Fowlkes) and was openly gay. Not that there is anything odd or wrong about that. It is just rather strange how these two polarizing figures came together in a union. For more info and details see: http://www.vanityfair.com/style/scandal/…

> Not that there is anything odd or wrong about that. I find it really strange when people talk about someone's personal life details and then say that there's nothing odd or wrong about it. Especially when right before that they say that their personal situation is "bizzare", and the reader kinda expects to learn, what is so bizzare about it. So, why did you bring his bisexuality up in that comment?

Something being "bizarre" is entirely orthogonal to "right vs wrong" value judgements.

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#609

Post by hristov » Sat, Jul 11, 2015, 2:38 AM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #505

nhf wrote: post #10

I think this was the right thing to do from a PR perspective. Having Steve back as the new CEO will definitely be good for the community. I also applaud Reddit's announcement for calling the community out on their childish BS: > As a closing note, it was sickening to see some of the things redditors wrote about Ellen. [1] The reduction in compassion that happens when we’re all behind computer screens is not good for…

I don't know if she was a bad leader or not. My big concern is this populist approach to firing people. Enough people don't like a company officer? Cobble a "movement" and generate enough controversy to force them to step down. I think unless they egregiously violate company policy or violate the law or do something which would bring damage to a company it should be up to the company to direct the fate of an officer.…

Well, this kind of looks like an egregious violation of company policy. It looks like she punished an employee for giving an interview to a famous minority politician. There has to be some company policy against retaliation on political basis.

Regarding "mob rule" this is a free country and people have a choice which website to read and to contribute to. If people want to go away from reddit that is their choice. The company that owns reddit does not need to follow reddit user wishes, but they have to face the distinct possibility that those users will leave and the consequences thereof.

You can call it mob rule, but other's can call it the matter of ordinary people exercising free choice.

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#610

Post by mirimir » Sat, Jul 11, 2015, 2:39 AM UTC

jellicle wrote: post #406

Nadya wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This? https://i.imgur.com/nrYiK5M.png I find it telling it was negative a majority of the time. Usually "mods" get +1'd just for being mods (common on many forums). It shows, to me at least, that what she said rarely was supported by the community.

It shows to me that she was dogged by misogynists and MRAs excited by the discrimination lawsuit, from the start of her Reddit tenure through to the end. In a similar fashion, if Barack Obama posted something like "Mom and apple pie are both great.", it would be downvoted by his political foes and upvoted by his political allies. That should not be taken as an indication that "the community" opposes or disagrees with…

Some griefers did key on that. But overall, she was perceived as opposing free speech, which is a core value for numerous (maybe even most) Reddit users.