Earlier quoted context omitted.
Some poor people are just born into bad situations and stay that way. You can't extrapolate your limited experience onto all of them.
My experiences are limited but consistent. If you can provide even more evidence pointing consistently the opposite direction, I'd not only be convinced, but I'd be thankful. However, I don't think that's easy to do.
To help poor people, give them money
91–100 of 133 posts
Re: To help poor people, give them money
#92Earlier quoted context omitted.
What? How is acting rationally given your past life experience "poor decision making"? If you don't have money to spare, and then one month you get a windfall and do, it's absolutely rational to assume (and consequently base your decisions on) that you'll go back to the former state.
Because they're not actually acting rationally? Semantically correct logic built upon false assumptions is still fundamentally incorrect. You seem to be caught in a circular argument... the poor can't help that they're poor because, well, they're poor!
That is exactly what it is. Poor people are poor because we are poor.
We see rich people making money on the stock market, and wish we could, but we have no excess money to do that with.
We see rich people upgrading their homes and their cars and their whatevers to be more energy efficient, but when our car breaks down and can't be repaired, we buy whatever car we can afford, not whatever car would have the lowest TCO per mile.
Or hell, anything that has a calculable TCO, usually the most efficient TCO-wise has a very large initial investment... poor people can't afford that, thus we are punished, literally, because we are poor.
Like, a few days ago, I finally ran out of my strategic supply of incandescent bulbs. I can't have CFLs in my house because they tend to give me headaches, and they make everything look like shit anyways; but for the past decade, LED lighting has been absolutely too expensive.
I basically fought with myself for 3 days over finally spending $75 to upgrade sixteen 40 watt bulbs and seven 60 watt bulbs. Power efficiency wise, trying to estimate my average usage as best as possible, it is going to take 2.7 years for for those bulbs to pay for themselves (I use the lights very little, but our power prices are very high)... sometimes I wonder if I'm going to survive the month, let alone 2.7 years.
Hell, I'm trying to grow food in my backyard just to try to get better vegetables cheaper: the farmers market around here is pretty bad, and what little local vegetables we grow are sold out of state, while most of what is on store shelves is either from California or out of the country, and often half-rotten.
The people who eat pre-packaged frozen garbage all the time, or eat at McDs and KFC all the time, and become massively overweight and generally suffer from health problems (which also punishes us because we're poor, thus making us even poorer) eat that way because at least it isn't half rotten garbage being sold as fresh vegetables.
My fellow poor people around here think I'm insane for going Paleo, such as getting rid of cheap sources of carbs (such as breads and pastas and refined sugars), and eating more fresh vegetables (organic brands tend to actually not be rotten garbage; yet another punishment for being poor), and eating more healthy fat and protein sources (such as better cuts of real meat instead of eating chicken or really bad cuts of pork, or processed shit like hot dogs or whatever)...
... and that choice of mine? Sure, I'm not going to die of being overweight now. I had pre-Diabetus, it's gone. I used to weigh 340 pounds (I'm 6'0"), now I weigh 190ish. I went from that 340 to 214 in exactly a year. I did this with diet modification alone.
I lost all that weight? Punished by being forced to buy new clothes. Punished by being shunned by fatter people who basically hate me because I chose to become skinny and make better choices about my diet because somehow I'm better than them (as if that thought process even begins to make sense). Punished by having an even larger chunk of my budget eaten up my better diet.
Now, back to the garden? Sure, if I can put a little bit of work in, and get a fresh source of vegetables, that'd be great: the soil is apparently so bad that it may take years of adding nutrients and fertilizer and other organic material back to the soil to get it to grow a good crop.
What I've already put into the soil? Cost money. What I will put into the soil in the future? Costs money. When will I see a return on that investment? Never is still a possibility, I have not ruled it out yet.
So yes, being poor is a punishment for being poor, and the punishment for being guilty of the crime of being poor is being poor. Its a never ending loop of bullshit that is very hard to climb out of.
Want to fix society? Give everyone their basic needs so they can go focus on actually being productive members of society, and THEY BECOME PRODUCTIVE MEMBERS OF SOCIETY. Treat people like how you want them to behave, AND THEY BECOME THAT PERSON.
I have no clue why the hell so many people have problems with what is basically Psychology 101. None of this is new, but we keep rediscovering it every few years as if it is some magical new tablet handed down from Mount Sinai with brand new information on it.
Re: To help poor people, give them money
#93Earlier quoted context omitted.
Because they're not actually acting rationally? Semantically correct logic built upon false assumptions is still fundamentally incorrect. You seem to be caught in a circular argument... the poor can't help that they're poor because, well, they're poor!
As a poor person myself, who grew up poor, and am still quite poor (although less poor than I used to be).... That is exactly what it is. Poor people are poor because we are poor. We see rich people making money on the stock market, and wish we could, but we have no excess money to do that with. We see rich people upgrading their homes and their cars and their whatevers to be more energy efficient, but when our car b…
Re: To help poor people, give them money
#94Earlier quoted context omitted.
Malaria generally kills only the young and weak. It's like the flu over here. The problem is malnutrition. Hence why a large amount of mosquito nets are never used to sleep under, but rather as fishing nets. I know people who have had malaria (family that lives in a tropical 3rd world country). All survived. Giving out mosquito nets to conquer malaria makes as much sense as giving out medical masks to conquer the flu…
Confused: you can't 'have had' malaria, its a lifetime affliction isn't it?
Re: To help poor people, give them money
#95Earlier quoted context omitted.
ianferrel is not perpetuating the meme that poor people are poor because they lack decision making skills. He acknowledges that there are poor people with good decision making skills, and that giving them money will help them. Pointing out that fools impoverish themselves is not the same as saying that all impoverished people are fools.
He is perpetuating the meme of the deserving and the undeserving poor though... EDIT source http://lmgtfy.com/?q=deserving+and+the+undeserving+poor
I guess my question is, what do you mean by deserving/undeserving? Deserving of what?
Re: To help poor people, give them money
#96When some people ask money to buy the food and you give them food - they are quite often disappointed and turn away. When some people ask money and you give them some money - they are quite often disappointed because you are not giving them enough.
I'm tired of this stereotypical judgement that poor people are so bad with money that we'd be better off generously making purchasing decisions for them.
Re: To help poor people, give them money
#97Earlier quoted context omitted.
My experiences are limited but consistent. If you can provide even more evidence pointing consistently the opposite direction, I'd not only be convinced, but I'd be thankful. However, I don't think that's easy to do.
All the evidence points the opposite direction... in the United States, you are unlikely to escape the economic circumstances that you are born into, especially if you are born into the top or bottom quintile: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/01/04/us/comparing-e...
The problem with the "evidence" you're using is that it can be interpreted many ways. It's merely a correlation.
In circumstances closer to controlled experiments where I actually gave someone money, they usually wound up worse off in a couple months, not better, unless I made sure the money went towards fixing a real problem.
Re: To help poor people, give them money
#98The best way to help poor people who make reasonably good decisions is to give them money. People who make bad decisions often end up poor. Giving them money will not help them make better decisions, and may make them worse off. How you think those two effects interact, and how much you value efficiency of donation vs. enabling people with poor decision making skills to waste probably determines where you stand on th…
Poor decision making skills? I don't think you understand what it is to be poor. People are more rational than you think - when people experience long term problems and generally a very inconsistent world (food/money/resources come by sporadically), they make decisions that help them in the short term, because to their experience there is unlikely to be a long term. If someone below the poverty line wins $10,0000 in…
Re: To help poor people, give them money
#99Earlier quoted context omitted.
>>> "they make decisions that help them in the short term, because to their experience there is unlikely to be a long term." This is also known as "poor decision making skills". Granted, it's very understandable in many situations, but let's call a spade a spade
No, it is making decisions based on information you aren't considering. Poor people are making economic decisions not to come out ahead but to mitigate their losses. They aren't doing this because they want to, it is because it is the best decision they can make given their constraints. For example, they can either sell their time for minimum wage, far less than the value they create, or they can starve or go homeles…
Re: To help poor people, give them money
#100Giving money to the poor merely elevates those who received the money over a new generation of "poor" and does nothing to actually stop the systems that create poverty in the first place. If you would like to actually reduce the net amount of "poor people", instead of simply creating a revolving door for individuals, you give money to the middle class. Or, phrased differently: Give a man a fish and he eats for a day.…