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To help poor people, give them money

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Re: To help poor people, give them money

#71

Post by sologoub »

gph wrote: post #42
ianferrel wrote: post #13

The best way to help poor people who make reasonably good decisions is to give them money. People who make bad decisions often end up poor. Giving them money will not help them make better decisions, and may make them worse off. How you think those two effects interact, and how much you value efficiency of donation vs. enabling people with poor decision making skills to waste probably determines where you stand on th…

I would say the majority of people that are poor didn't end up that way, they were born or thrust into it. The amount of people who become poor purely through their own actions is not reflective of the overall population. Most people, myself included, will make both good and bad decisions throughout their lives. Those with money/education/stability can weather the bad and thrive under the good. I've had difficult per…

Equating bad decisions (from our or even general societal points of view) with someone being a "bad person" isn't really the right way to look at the concern.

The fact that bad decisions (again from a given point of view) are made has to do with the duration of the view. From my experience, people that spend their last money on drugs are looking for a relief, even if it lasts from a few minutes to a couple of hours of that high. This is the time that they don't have to face their situation. From that point of view, the decision is sound to them. Addiction is a very powerful thing, but it need not be chemical, it could very well be emotional.

The motivation is an extremely important item to consider. Proponents of the food stamps and other specific-use assistance programs point to the fact that they deter bad use. However, one can still buy fast-food with it and end-up more unhealthy and worse of.

Personally, I am of a very strong belief that as a society, we need to work to address root causes that together combine to contribute to the poverty rates. Some relatively straightforward ones - real universal healthcare (and mental health) and universal education to at least bachelors level.

If we really want to eliminate the notion of poverty, we need to figure out universal income question, but the economic consequences of this still need to be worked out. Universal healthcare and education are economic no-brainers when not completely bastardized by corporate interests... (in my own view at least.)

Re: To help poor people, give them money

#72

Post by wlievens »

blacksmith_tb wrote: post #26
thedevil wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Just as logical as saying that if the wheelchair-bound were better at walking, they wouldn't be in wheelchairs." Yeah, that's a good analogy to show my point. You don't throw someone on a wheelchair on their feet and hope it goes well. Just like you don't give a poor person a wad of money and hope it goes well.

No, the analogy was intended to compare a condition (poverty) with another (paralysis), not a tool (money) with another (wheelchair).

Somebody should construct a theorem that states that any metaphor can be used to support any given argument.

Re: To help poor people, give them money

#73

Post by Frondo »

pdeuchler wrote: post #68
taurath wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poor decision making skills? I don't think you understand what it is to be poor. People are more rational than you think - when people experience long term problems and generally a very inconsistent world (food/money/resources come by sporadically), they make decisions that help them in the short term, because to their experience there is unlikely to be a long term. If someone below the poverty line wins $10,0000 in…

>>> "they make decisions that help them in the short term, because to their experience there is unlikely to be a long term." This is also known as "poor decision making skills". Granted, it's very understandable in many situations, but let's call a spade a spade

What? How is acting rationally given your past life experience "poor decision making"?

If you don't have money to spare, and then one month you get a windfall and do, it's absolutely rational to assume (and consequently base your decisions on) that you'll go back to the former state.

Re: To help poor people, give them money

#74

Post by JupiterMoon »

zo1 wrote: post #43
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Confused: you can't 'have had' malaria, its a lifetime affliction isn't it?

You can get re-infected. As far as I know, it doesn't stay dormant in your body (like say Herpes). But I'm not a doctor, just had it a few mild times as a kid.

> it doesn't stay dormant in your body

Yes it does.

> just had it a few mild times as a kid.

Nope you have it. When you are in poor general health it will probably resurface. Good luck.

Re: To help poor people, give them money

#75

Post by pdeuchler »

brandonmenc wrote: post #70
pdeuchler wrote: post #54

Giving money to the poor merely elevates those who received the money over a new generation of "poor" and does nothing to actually stop the systems that create poverty in the first place. If you would like to actually reduce the net amount of "poor people", instead of simply creating a revolving door for individuals, you give money to the middle class. Or, phrased differently: Give a man a fish and he eats for a day.…

> Giving money to the poor merely elevates those who received the money over a new generation of "poor" and does nothing to actually stop the systems that create poverty in the first place. If "the system" is giving people money to raise them out of poverty, how can it simultaneously be a "system that creates poverty?" Your logic implies that there is enough work to go around, and that's increasingly seeming to be no…

It's very possible to lift a single person out of poverty at the expense of two or more others. Also remember that poverty merely defines the current state of a person, not their inherent class.

Re: To help poor people, give them money

#76

Post by [deleted] »

mangeletti wrote: post #33

This works in small experiments because when you give money to a small group of poor people (A) within a larger group of poor people (B), group A gains leverage compared to their prior position and compared to group B. When you give money to all poor people, the net result is simply inflation[1]. If transfer payments were made to taper up from max(wealth) (receives $0) to min(wealth) (receives $average(wealth)), disp…

[deleted]

Re: To help poor people, give them money

#77

Post by pdeuchler »

Frondo wrote: post #73
pdeuchler wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>> "they make decisions that help them in the short term, because to their experience there is unlikely to be a long term." This is also known as "poor decision making skills". Granted, it's very understandable in many situations, but let's call a spade a spade

What? How is acting rationally given your past life experience "poor decision making"? If you don't have money to spare, and then one month you get a windfall and do, it's absolutely rational to assume (and consequently base your decisions on) that you'll go back to the former state.

Because they're not actually acting rationally? Semantically correct logic built upon false assumptions is still fundamentally incorrect.

You seem to be caught in a circular argument... the poor can't help that they're poor because, well, they're poor!

Re: To help poor people, give them money

#78

Post by jack-r-abbit »

zo1 wrote: post #49
blacksmith_tb wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just as logical as saying that if the wheelchair-bound were better at walking, they wouldn't be in wheelchairs. Poor people are often living anxiously one emergency from total bankruptcy, eating cheap, non-nutritious foods, living in uncomfortable or dangerous housing, etc. They'd need to be more than just good with money, they'd need to be brilliant.

This doesn't make sense. I pay a quarter (or more) of my total income so that government can take care of these individuals. Food, basic nutrition, basic safety, etc. This should be a solved problem.

I get what you are saying. But really, not all of your income tax goes to take care of the poor. Sure the government wastes a lot of it on bullshit but there is no reasonable scenario where 100% of your income tax could go to help the poor.

Re: To help poor people, give them money

#79

Post by lliamander »

taurath wrote: post #27
ianferrel wrote: post #13

The best way to help poor people who make reasonably good decisions is to give them money. People who make bad decisions often end up poor. Giving them money will not help them make better decisions, and may make them worse off. How you think those two effects interact, and how much you value efficiency of donation vs. enabling people with poor decision making skills to waste probably determines where you stand on th…

Poor decision making skills? I don't think you understand what it is to be poor. People are more rational than you think - when people experience long term problems and generally a very inconsistent world (food/money/resources come by sporadically), they make decisions that help them in the short term, because to their experience there is unlikely to be a long term. If someone below the poverty line wins $10,0000 in…

ianferrel is not perpetuating the meme that poor people are poor because they lack decision making skills. He acknowledges that there are poor people with good decision making skills, and that giving them money will help them. Pointing out that fools impoverish themselves is not the same as saying that all impoverished people are fools.

Re: To help poor people, give them money

#80

Post by JupiterMoon »

lliamander wrote: post #79
taurath wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poor decision making skills? I don't think you understand what it is to be poor. People are more rational than you think - when people experience long term problems and generally a very inconsistent world (food/money/resources come by sporadically), they make decisions that help them in the short term, because to their experience there is unlikely to be a long term. If someone below the poverty line wins $10,0000 in…

ianferrel is not perpetuating the meme that poor people are poor because they lack decision making skills. He acknowledges that there are poor people with good decision making skills, and that giving them money will help them. Pointing out that fools impoverish themselves is not the same as saying that all impoverished people are fools.

He is perpetuating the meme of the deserving and the undeserving poor though...

EDIT source http://lmgtfy.com/?q=deserving+and+the+undeserving+poor

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