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I.R.S. Cracks Down on Hedge Fund Tax Strategy

nytimes.com

81–90 of 136 posts

Re: I.R.S. Cracks Down on Hedge Fund Tax Strategy

#81
post #31
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but OP's concerns don't matter. The Constitution's concerns matter. "Battery" is a crime. If the state decides that "smacking someone's back" meets the definition of battery, they can prosecute people who committed that act before the clarification, as long as a judge finds their interpretation to be consistent with the wording of the law. Law is not computer code that fully specifies a simulation in advance.

So rule decider type B (judges) can effectively create retroactive laws/policies. An interpretation that is enforced is as good as a law.

Yes, obviously. How did you think courts worked?

Re: I.R.S. Cracks Down on Hedge Fund Tax Strategy

#82
post #10

In my opinion this is a much better article on the subject. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-07-21/renaissanc... Essentially the US has a few different taxes you can pay as an investor. There is a short term tax on trading profits and a longer term holder tax for "investors" which is lower. This obviously creates a situation where people will do their best to make their trading fall into the later category…

The rules are deeply arbitrary, and goes to the nature of financials as being rather abstract concepts with arbitrary definitions. I buy stock in a firm, that firm makes a lot of profit, but I don't liquidate my position. How is that different (short-term vs long-term gains) from me selling their stock and buying another stock? It's even the same word: A retail business sells its stock (product), and sells it's stock…

How can it be arbitrary given the fact is so astoundingly crazy?...

Re: I.R.S. Cracks Down on Hedge Fund Tax Strategy

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is the same because if I disagree with the IRS and refuse payment Nonpayment and refusing payment are different things. The act of refusal would happen after the policy change, therefore, the only act that might even arguably be criminalized is an act that would occur after the change, and no retroactive criminalization has occurred. No act before the policy was adopted is criminalized, even by your characteriza…

Or I could ignore what are obviously semantics following a clear retroactive change in US policy that affects criminal law. It doesn't have to be as complex as you make it out to be. The NYT even called it a retroactive policy change!

> Or I could ignore what are obviously semantics following a clear retroactive change in US policy that affects criminal law.

You can ignore whatever you want, but it doesn't change what the words in the Constitution meant in the context they were written, and have been consistently been interpreted by the courts to mean. Arguing that something is unconstitutional just because you've invented an entirely ahistorical set of definitions of the words used is, well, not all that unusual, but still not particularly interesting.

> It doesn't have to be as complex as you make it out to be.

Its not at all complex: A government action is an ex post facto law if it criminalizes, or increases the criminal sanction for, an event that occurred before the act occurred. Even by your own characterization, the only thing this might criminalize is a refusal to pay the newly-calculated tax after the policy. So, no ex post facto law.

You can argue that it is undesirable for other reasons, but you can rest on the Constitutional prohibition of ex post facto laws to do that when its not an ex post facto law.

> The NYT even called it a retroactive policy change!

Its obviously a retroactive policy change, in that it applies to IRS assessment of taxes for prior tax years.

No act that was committed in those tax years becomes criminal because of the policy change, so its not an action which retroactively criminalizes an act or increases the criminal penalty for an act.

"Retroactive policy change" and "ex post facto law" aren't the same thing.

Re: I.R.S. Cracks Down on Hedge Fund Tax Strategy

#84
post #73
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is the people who make the tax rules want to encourage one kind of behavior over another, regardless of anything else. You're free to think that's a fundamentally bad idea, but it isn't "arbitrary," it's the basic idea of Behavioral Economics.

They could have done that much better with linear interpolation instead of a step function. Today's step function, with made-up tax percentages: 20% if held for less than a year, 10% if a year or more. You end up with a bunch of trades held for a year and a minute. My proposal, with interpolation: 20% if held for less than 6 months 10% if held for 18 months or more Between 6 and 18 months, we interpolate between 20 a…

That sounds like a nightmare to do without software computing it. I realize you and likely everyone reading this use tax software, but many people still do them by hand, and this would involve an individual tax-rate lookup for each transaction rather than just grouping them into short/long-term capital gains.

Re: I.R.S. Cracks Down on Hedge Fund Tax Strategy

#85
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rules are deeply arbitrary, and goes to the nature of financials as being rather abstract concepts with arbitrary definitions. I buy stock in a firm, that firm makes a lot of profit, but I don't liquidate my position. How is that different (short-term vs long-term gains) from me selling their stock and buying another stock? It's even the same word: A retail business sells its stock (product), and sells it's stock…

> Ultimately, taxing "realized" gains can never be logical, since "realization" is a fictional concept not grounded in reality. Trading an asset vs. holding it is a non-fictional concept very much grounded in reality. Attributing significance to it is, in a sense, arbitrary in the same sense that any assignment of significance is, but its definitely not a fictional concept divorced from reality.

I think people are getting tripped up on the difference between "fictional" and...I dunno..."fungible"? In a sense all money is fictional, but obviously despite that no one is willing to trade a $10 bill for my $1 bill. So taxing people differently for having $10 vs $1 might make sense.

But $10 and ten $1 bills are equivalent. A tax that applied to one and not the other would be very weird; it's not clear what behavior it's meant to encourage, and anyway lots of people would avoid paying it.

So the argument above is that "realizing" gains is a lot like getting change for a dollar bill. I don't know whether that's right, but anyway it's different from arguing about whether money is real :)

Re: I.R.S. Cracks Down on Hedge Fund Tax Strategy

#86
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing fictional about the ownership of a fraction of a profitable enterprise. This shouldn't be more difficult than the concept of negative numbers, or any other useful non-physical concept. Ditto for options or any other construct that has a mathematical or market-based value.

>There is nothing fictional about the ownership of a fraction of a profitable enterprise. Please read more carefully. I never claimed any such thing. 'fictional' modifies 'entity', not 'ownership'.

[deleted]

Re: I.R.S. Cracks Down on Hedge Fund Tax Strategy

#87
post #73
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is the people who make the tax rules want to encourage one kind of behavior over another, regardless of anything else. You're free to think that's a fundamentally bad idea, but it isn't "arbitrary," it's the basic idea of Behavioral Economics.

They could have done that much better with linear interpolation instead of a step function. Today's step function, with made-up tax percentages: 20% if held for less than a year, 10% if a year or more. You end up with a bunch of trades held for a year and a minute. My proposal, with interpolation: 20% if held for less than 6 months 10% if held for 18 months or more Between 6 and 18 months, we interpolate between 20 a…

Are you a lobbyist for TurboTax? (I kid I kid... but seriously, are you?)

Re: I.R.S. Cracks Down on Hedge Fund Tax Strategy

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And, hedge fund folks aside, long-term capital gains are also the taxes that apply to retirees drawing income from years of investments. Raising those rates would cause serious problems for folks who have already done all their financial planning and investing Raise them prospectively based on the date of asset purchase, starting some specified time after the date the change is adopted. Problem solved.

That would only solve the problem of not penalizing existing retirees. It would force all people currently saving for retirement to save 10-15% more to pay this new pile of tax. And what, precisely, do they get in return for that added tax burden?

> It would force all people currently saving for retirement to save 10-15% more to pay this new pile of tax.

This will happen regardless, as tax rates have nowhere to go but up in the USA (considering trillions in unfunded liabilities).

> And what, precisely, do they get in return for that added tax burden?

Civilization. That's exactly what taxes pay for.

Re: I.R.S. Cracks Down on Hedge Fund Tax Strategy

#89
post #12
post #3

U.S. Constitution, Article I, Section 9: No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed. How does that square with the article's "The new I.R.S. guidance will be retroactive, applying to all transactions as far back as Jan. 1, 2011." ?

The IRS doesn't pass laws, it's just issuing a guideline on how it will interpret existing tax law.

But if those interpretations are authoritative and violation of the current IRS interpretation (but not the previous one) means you get prosecuted in federal court, how is that not effectively the ability to retroactively change laws?

Re: I.R.S. Cracks Down on Hedge Fund Tax Strategy

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would only solve the problem of not penalizing existing retirees. It would force all people currently saving for retirement to save 10-15% more to pay this new pile of tax. And what, precisely, do they get in return for that added tax burden?

> It would force all people currently saving for retirement to save 10-15% more to pay this new pile of tax. This will happen regardless, as tax rates have nowhere to go but up in the USA (considering trillions in unfunded liabilities). > And what, precisely, do they get in return for that added tax burden? Civilization. That's exactly what taxes pay for.

> This will happen regardless, as tax rates have nowhere to go but up in the USA (considering trillions in unfunded liabilities).

Because when you've run up a giant pile of debt, the response should be "get and spend more money" rather than "spend less"?

> Civilization. That's exactly what taxes pay for.

As long as we're being snarky: product not as advertised, cost inflated well over initial agreement, return policy non-existent and no refund available. Would refuse to do business with again if not for geographic monopoly and coercion.

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