Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

IBM says it has made working versions of 7nm chips

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 129 posts

Re: IBM says it has made working versions of 7nm chips

#61

Post by rprospero »

puranjay wrote: post #52
c0nnector wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can build an entire new industry around it. Eveything as a service. Even hardware could become a service. You wouldn't have to actually own it, instead pay a monthly fee and you have access to produxt X. You get the latest models without any extras fees. The advantage of having a service is that the customer is hooked and it's harder to leave.

These folks are trying something like that: https://saybyebuy.com/ As an idea, I feel it's wonderful. It would massively reduce wastage.

What scares me about proposals like this is that it's further stratification of society into two separate classes: those who actually own everything and those who must appease the owners.

For example, I can put £40 in my sock drawer every month and, in eight months, I could buy a PS4 and use it for the rest of my life. I could then start save that £40 toward a different purchase. Alternately, I could go with the site you listed and pay £40 a month for the rest of my life just for that same PS4, never making headway.

Now, you can point out that a PS4 is almost the definition of an unnecessary luxury and that I don't have to pay the £40 monthly rental fee, and you'd be right. I mostly went with that example because it was right on the front page and such a terrible deal. Still, in the world where I can own things, I can have the PS4 and the £40 a month, after a little over a half year of hardship, while the rental society won't let me have that. Similarly, I can buy a DVD and watch it forever, instead of shelling out for Netflix each month and hoping that they don't drop that title.

Re: IBM says it has made working versions of 7nm chips

#62

Post by pjc50 »

icanhackit wrote: post #46

Time to start working on the 7km chip. Fibre everywhere, content delivery servers everywhere, game servers out the wazoo so my crappy media streaming gadget or VR headset can remotely pull in the latest movies and games in 4K with minimal lag. You could outfit a few of the world's major cities for the cost of a new fab. Unfortunately this won't sell new consumer hardware on an regular basis.

OnLive tried the games streaming thing and failed.

Re: IBM says it has made working versions of 7nm chips

#63

Post by pjc50 »

rprospero wrote: post #61
puranjay wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These folks are trying something like that: https://saybyebuy.com/ As an idea, I feel it's wonderful. It would massively reduce wastage.

What scares me about proposals like this is that it's further stratification of society into two separate classes: those who actually own everything and those who must appease the owners. For example, I can put £40 in my sock drawer every month and, in eight months, I could buy a PS4 and use it for the rest of my life. I could then start save that £40 toward a different purchase. Alternately, I could go with the site…

Exactly. This is a very old business model; the UK company "Radio Rentals" pioneered it in the 30s and was very successful in the era when TVs were expensive (compared to housing!). It's been largely obliterated by cheap credit.

All of the items on that front page have a monthly rental cost that's about 1/10 the purchase cost. In most cases you'd be better off with a 12 month personal loan than renting it for 12 months and you get to keep the item. If you want it for 18 months then even buying it on a credit card at 20% looks like a reasonable option.

Re: IBM says it has made working versions of 7nm chips

#64

Post by pjc50 »

dzhiurgis wrote: post #48
BinaryIdiot wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's silicon-germanium (so still has silicon in it). I'm curious what comes after :)

Graphene looks promising (as it is for everything).

Graphene is a massive pain to manufacture. For example, I don't think you can sputter it on to wafers.

Re: IBM says it has made working versions of 7nm chips

#65

Post by minthd »

awalton wrote: post #43

Let's all realize that all of these research branches have been playing around with 10nm and 7nm chips for years now - the fact IBM cobbled together some working chip isn't surprising. Getting it to production is really the vastly more important part. This press release is equivalent to "Scientists Cures Diabetes in Mice" - a breakthrough that happens about a half dozen times a year but has still yet to make it from…

Another issue: currently the biggest bottleneck , cost wise, is in lithography - the process we use to draw the transistors into chips. Because of this issue, the two latest generations of chips are more expensive(per transistor) than an older version - stopping moore's law.

And moore's law probably won't return to life, until we learn how to solve that problem, which the current work doesn't help with.

Re: IBM says it has made working versions of 7nm chips

#66

Post by avz »

POWERfan wrote: post #47
awalton wrote: post #43

Let's all realize that all of these research branches have been playing around with 10nm and 7nm chips for years now - the fact IBM cobbled together some working chip isn't surprising. Getting it to production is really the vastly more important part. This press release is equivalent to "Scientists Cures Diabetes in Mice" - a breakthrough that happens about a half dozen times a year but has still yet to make it from…

>This press release is equivalent to "Scientists Cures Diabetes in Mice" - a breakthrough that happens about a half dozen times a year but has still yet to make it from the lab to the FDA. Chip manufacturers like Intel and IBM have regularly made good on promises of exponential progress for at least a half century. Comparing them to press release-pushing biomedical researchers is tantamount to a slur.

Nitpick:

> Comparing them [chip manufacturers] to press release-pushing biomedical researchers is tantamount to a slur.

No, it isn't. Slower progress in biomedical research isn't a result of biomedical researchers exhibiting any of the qualities whose unwarranted attribution normally constitutes slur. It is the result of much greater complexity, lower predictability, higher safety requirements and weaker human understanding of biological systems compared to semiconductors.

Re: IBM says it has made working versions of 7nm chips

#67

Post by brilee »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #42
eleitl wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The node size do not correspond to a given dimension of a structure anymore, it's computed property, from area of a given standard cell (e.g. SRAM cell).

That's informative but doesn't disagree. It's not a 1:1 correspondence but it's a pretty close correlation to the actual widths of things.

silicon is diamond cubic; 0.54 nm corresponds to 8/sqrt(3) radiuses worth. So the diameter of silicon is 0.23nm, and 7nm = ~30 silicon atoms across.

Re: IBM says it has made working versions of 7nm chips

#68

Post by NathanthePie »

tinco wrote: post #53
monk_e_boy wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have an ultra-clean room. It has a window.

My university has clean rooms, they have windows, the hallways have windows too so you can peek in from outside. Always great to show to visitors :) (at night they have weirdly colored lighting, pink, purple, so it looks really funky, no idea why)

It's possible that when nobody is working in the room, the lights aid in maintaining a sterile environment.

At specific wavelengths (~245-265 nm), (UV) light inactivates quite a few living things. As light is quantized, the purpleish color you see is due to e- stepping down.

Re: IBM says it has made working versions of 7nm chips

#69

Post by vegabook »

avz wrote: post #66
POWERfan wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This press release is equivalent to "Scientists Cures Diabetes in Mice" - a breakthrough that happens about a half dozen times a year but has still yet to make it from the lab to the FDA. Chip manufacturers like Intel and IBM have regularly made good on promises of exponential progress for at least a half century. Comparing them to press release-pushing biomedical researchers is tantamount to a slur.

Nitpick: > Comparing them [chip manufacturers] to press release-pushing biomedical researchers is tantamount to a slur. No, it isn't. Slower progress in biomedical research isn't a result of biomedical researchers exhibiting any of the qualities whose unwarranted attribution normally constitutes slur. It is the result of much greater complexity, lower predictability, higher safety requirements and weaker human unders…

The point is that most semiconductor predictions come true, whereas biomed predictions are much less reliable. Unfortunately, that is a reflection on the latter's practitioners as they are aware of their poor odds yet still publish.

Re: IBM says it has made working versions of 7nm chips

#70

Post by [deleted] »

avz wrote: post #66
POWERfan wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This press release is equivalent to "Scientists Cures Diabetes in Mice" - a breakthrough that happens about a half dozen times a year but has still yet to make it from the lab to the FDA. Chip manufacturers like Intel and IBM have regularly made good on promises of exponential progress for at least a half century. Comparing them to press release-pushing biomedical researchers is tantamount to a slur.

Nitpick: > Comparing them [chip manufacturers] to press release-pushing biomedical researchers is tantamount to a slur. No, it isn't. Slower progress in biomedical research isn't a result of biomedical researchers exhibiting any of the qualities whose unwarranted attribution normally constitutes slur. It is the result of much greater complexity, lower predictability, higher safety requirements and weaker human unders…

[deleted]
Post reply on HN