This Industry is Fucked • Hacker News Board

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#301

Post by behemphi » Tue, Jul 07, 2015, 4:05 PM UTC

shykes wrote: post #149

I am a colleague of Jess, and have witnessed her dealing with this ordeal. She is a badass and doesn't need anyone to speak on her behalf. But some aspects of her experience are relevant to all of us and we have to talk about it. 1. If this is happening to you and you haven't spoken to anyone about it - please do. There is a specialized support group at https://www.crashoverridenetwork.net . Even if you feel you can…

To the physical aspect of Solomon's point number 1. I have taught self defense in the past for years.

Rule #1:

Don't be in the situation.

Interpretation:

Obviously don't walk down a dark alley alone. But in this context, don't deal with it alone. Be sure people know you are in danger. Surround yourself with colleagues, friends and those whom you trust. Solomon is spot on: Don't be alone physically, emotionally, professionally.

Predators first isolate prey from the herd. Be smart enough to recognize this and avoid it.

And please, if a situation feels sketchy, remove yourself. Stubborn does not equal heroism. Be proactive with your safety and well being. It is yours.

Our Industry:

Our industry is _not_ fucked. I am part of that industry and I refuse to be characterized thusly.

I can sympathize with Jesse's indictment of the industry as a whole and do not cast aspersion on someone in her situation reacting as she has. I am sorry that it came to that level of frustration, pain, fear for her.

However we who are _not_ experiencing the stress of such a terrible situation are obliged to keep a level head. As a group we need to recast the cause of her frustration (and that of others in similar situations) into something more effective. Individual people in our industry are fucked. Let's identify these individuals and remove them from our industry.

Finally, to echo on another of Solomon's key points: Let's do it legally.

Thank you to Docker for seeking to identify these _individuals_ and prosecute them.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#302

Post by knowtheory » Tue, Jul 07, 2015, 6:22 PM UTC

rdrake98 wrote: post #282

knowtheory wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're clearly not interested in actually engaging in a conversation, so, like i said before, i hope you can find ways to be excellent to others. Have a good one.

That I found less annoying than your previous post. It's infuriating to be told that I'm not interested in actually engaging in a conversation when I'm sure that I am but it's less annoying than the implicatures in the previous one so thanks. One thing it might be worth mentioning: my commercial experience of the software industry goes back to 1980. It's only with the advent of social media built on the Web that I've…

Sure.

Everybody brings themselves and their assumptions to a conversation. All conversations are a negotiation over a shared space (however temporarily we may share that space).

I'm not calling into question whether you believe harassment is a bad thing or not (because frankly that's a pointless question to ask. Anybody who's asked point blank if they support harassment is going to say no).

The rhetorical structure of the conversation is what i am concerned about and steering the conversation around.

It is problematic from a rhetorical standpoint to debate whether or not the original author is being harassed by a single person or multiple people, because it distracts from the authors point, we can make no headway without further facts (which we are not privy to), and whether or not she's being harassed by a single person or multiple people is not pertinent to either the problems at hand or possible remedies.

So, then from a conversational point, one has to ask themselves what is the rhetorical purpose of asking the question? Is it intentionally to distract from the author's point? Is it to float & further the OP's theory? Is it morbid curiosity? Is it just carelessness or ignorance (and i mean that in the descriptive and non-pejorative fashion)?

Which of those are appropriate justifications for further pursuing the line of inquiry? I'd say none of them are, which is why i've been pretty vehement in knocking the foundation out from under them.

The door is always open for someone to supply a justification for why it matters and should be discussed, but skepticism isn't a good justification just the same way that pascal's wager isn't a good justification for believing in a Christian God.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#303

Post by fak3r » Tue, Jul 07, 2015, 7:04 PM UTC

shykes wrote: post #149

I am a colleague of Jess, and have witnessed her dealing with this ordeal. She is a badass and doesn't need anyone to speak on her behalf. But some aspects of her experience are relevant to all of us and we have to talk about it. 1. If this is happening to you and you haven't spoken to anyone about it - please do. There is a specialized support group at https://www.crashoverridenetwork.net . Even if you feel you can…

I want to help raise awareness to show that we stand with people like Jess who are having to deal with this bullshit. Where can we order the t-shirts? We must make it clear that this kind of bs will be met with fierce resistance from now on.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#304

Post by chroma » Tue, Jul 07, 2015, 7:50 PM UTC

anthonyb wrote: post #296

chroma wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry if you think I'm part of the problem, but I don't see how those two points relate to my comment. Heck, I agree with pretty much everything shkyes said. I didn't know labelling Randi Harper a harasser was a gamergate tactic. I know almost nothing about this whole gamergate business. I just visited the OAPI's site and recognized the name Randi Harper from my acquaintance's experience. He had a very rough time…

So, the two parts: 2. Unsubstantiated smears, and categorising her as "hostile". You're using an anonymous "throwaway" account, so there's no evidence whatsoever for your claims. 5. Downplaying the extreme harassment as "egregious behavior". Perhaps you (or anyone reading) might want to go look it up yourself, there's pages and pages of this sort of unbelievably obnoxious drivel: https://twitter.com/search?q=%40freeb…

Throwaway? My account is over 5 years years old. Please look at my comment history.[1] I'm not a troll or a single-issue commenter. I use a pseudonym because sometimes I want to say things that I believe to be true, but would cause me unnecessary grief if attached to my real name.

"Egregious" is downplaying? I used one of the strongest adjectives I could think of. Replace it with synonyms: their behavior is appalling, shocking, atrocious, abhorrent. I do not support them. I think they are terrible people. I cannot condemn them any more strongly than I already have. Please stop insinuating that I'm part of such a despicable group.

I'm glad Randi Harper created GGAutoblocker. I support the idea behind OAPI. I just don't think Harper is the right person for the job, as she has said some very not-nice things to someone I know, and it significantly impacted his quality of life.

I want the same thing as you: For people to converse without becoming targets of harassment, abuse, threats, or otherwise extremely unpleasant or dangerous communication. That's why I'm voicing my concern about the founder of OAPI. There is no other motive at work.

As I said before: No matter one's opinion or how delicately it is put, it gets misconstrued and pigeonholed. It's impossible to have an honest, nuanced conversation.

How can I disagree with you any more civilly than I already am? Yet despite such civility, I have to deal with implications that I'm part of an odious group of trolls and psychopaths.

1. https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=chroma

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#305

Post by MetaCosm » Tue, Jul 07, 2015, 8:13 PM UTC

throwaway3880 wrote: post #153

I used to engage to in this sort of behavior to some extent. I grew up with a repressed sexuality and no knowledge of how to relate to women. Then, I suffered endless social rejection. I spent all my time in front of computers, and got good at programming. We need to educate people (1) How to relate to other, respectfully (2) How to get over their anger (3) Tell them this behavior is unacceptable Tech has many misfit…

Thank you. I have long wanted to speak to someone who admits to doing this type of thing as it is very hard for me to understand.

I realize it might be painful to relive a bit, but would you be willing to go into some more detail (it is a throwaway anyway). What did you do, what were you thinking as you did it, and how could someone have reached you sooner to do 1/2/3?

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#306

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jul 07, 2015, 8:43 PM UTC

chroma wrote: post #304

anthonyb wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, the two parts: 2. Unsubstantiated smears, and categorising her as "hostile". You're using an anonymous "throwaway" account, so there's no evidence whatsoever for your claims. 5. Downplaying the extreme harassment as "egregious behavior". Perhaps you (or anyone reading) might want to go look it up yourself, there's pages and pages of this sort of unbelievably obnoxious drivel: https://twitter.com/search?q=%40freeb…

Throwaway? My account is over 5 years years old. Please look at my comment history.[1] I'm not a troll or a single-issue commenter. I use a pseudonym because sometimes I want to say things that I believe to be true, but would cause me unnecessary grief if attached to my real name. "Egregious" is downplaying ? I used one of the strongest adjectives I could think of. Replace it with synonyms: their behavior is appallin…

[deleted]

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#307

Post by anthonyb » Tue, Jul 07, 2015, 10:46 PM UTC

chroma wrote: post #304

anthonyb wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, the two parts: 2. Unsubstantiated smears, and categorising her as "hostile". You're using an anonymous "throwaway" account, so there's no evidence whatsoever for your claims. 5. Downplaying the extreme harassment as "egregious behavior". Perhaps you (or anyone reading) might want to go look it up yourself, there's pages and pages of this sort of unbelievably obnoxious drivel: https://twitter.com/search?q=%40freeb…

Throwaway? My account is over 5 years years old. Please look at my comment history.[1] I'm not a troll or a single-issue commenter. I use a pseudonym because sometimes I want to say things that I believe to be true, but would cause me unnecessary grief if attached to my real name. "Egregious" is downplaying ? I used one of the strongest adjectives I could think of. Replace it with synonyms: their behavior is appallin…

Yes, I based that on what you put in your bio:

    about:	I use this account for things I can't say

Ok, fair enough, you want to keep HN and your personal life separate. And you may be otherwise sincere (at least, you seem to be based on your posts), but that separation makes anything that you post hearsay unless you can back it up externally. You should probably take that into account when trying to bring things from your personal life over into HN.

So perhaps rather than continuing the same pattern of "Randi bad, because I say so", perhaps you can point out somewhere where she's currently failing? I also note that OAPI is more than just Randi, there are several people involved: http://onlineabuseprevention.org/

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#308

Post by daveloyall » Tue, Jul 07, 2015, 11:10 PM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #279

daveloyall wrote: post #273

I have read a small percentage of the comments on this page. I conclude that some of the "blame" conversation is rooted in guilt. In the history of this messy topic, some of you have only posted one mean comment. Maybe you even found and posted some content for dox. Now, you're finally realizing that this shit is real. Hell, you're older now. And you're panicking. You are refusing to believe that you have been part o…

I've been a jerk, to women, at work, a few times. Never sexual harassment, though. And I'm trying to never do it again. And if I see someone else do it, I hope I'll call them on it.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but... Sometimes people are jerks. It happens. The issue here is systematic jerkiness towards sentient beings based on whether they have an A or B dongle. ...It boggles the mind!

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#309

Post by ectoplasm » Wed, Jul 08, 2015, 5:38 AM UTC

anthonyb wrote: post #307

chroma wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Throwaway? My account is over 5 years years old. Please look at my comment history.[1] I'm not a troll or a single-issue commenter. I use a pseudonym because sometimes I want to say things that I believe to be true, but would cause me unnecessary grief if attached to my real name. "Egregious" is downplaying ? I used one of the strongest adjectives I could think of. Replace it with synonyms: their behavior is appallin…

Yes, I based that on what you put in your bio: about: I use this account for things I can't say Ok, fair enough, you want to keep HN and your personal life separate. And you may be otherwise sincere (at least, you seem to be based on your posts), but that separation makes anything that you post hearsay unless you can back it up externally. You should probably take that into account when trying to bring things from yo…

I was curious, so I clicked on the Twitter search link you posted. This conversation took place between between Randi and a developer (Johannes Meixner a.k.a. xmj):

https://archive.is/9KGyX

  randi> xmj: kindly go fuck yourself.
  randi> step the fuck back.
  randi> jesus fuck, are you a gamergater?
  randi> you are going on twitter and starting shit, and you just brought freebsd into it
  randi> and now you're coming after me with bullshit on twitter that you won't even back up
  randi> go. fuck. yourself.
  randi> xmj: you're a fucking disservice to the project.
  randi> and to open source in general.
  randi> except you decided to get involved and talk shit to me and talk shit about code of condcuts
  randi> i wouldn't have even known who you were had you not decided to be a dumbshit.
  randi> you're giving the project a bad name
  randi> and you should take it out of your bio on twitter.
  randi> you grow up, you piece of shit.
  randi> jesus
  randi> another privileged dumbass
  randi> whatever, dude. i'm emailing the foundation about you. they have a big push right now to try to get more women into the project, and your kind of public bullshit is the perfect example of why there isn't.
  randi> go fuck yourself.

All I can say is, hopefully Randi learns something about her own behavior from the anti-abuse work she's undertaking.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#310

Post by adamlett » Wed, Jul 08, 2015, 6:48 AM UTC

vilmosi wrote: post #297

alaroldai wrote: post #80

Every time I see posts like this, I see people commenting on it with varying statement to the effect of "that's a shame, but most people in tech aren't like that", or "I'm so tired of seeing posts like this, quit making a fuss." And that makes me so angry. Sure, maybe not everyone in the industry is an arsehole. But enough people are, and those people are vocal enough, that a significant number of people feel disgust…

>>> That should be enough to tell you that even if the majority are lovely people, the industry as a whole still has a problem. I'm not disagreeing with you. But... Isn't that true with everything? Is the medical industry fucked because some doctors are getting sued for malpractice? Is accountancy fucked because some accountants embezzle money? Are teachers fucked because some guy fails students who look like his ex?…

Your examples all have something in common which is that the harm is caused indiscriminately by which I mean that there is I reason to think that any one group of people is affected more than any other. In other words they are like car accidents. Everybody has a roughly equal chance of being affected and therefore everybody has the same incentives to fix or not fix the problem. But when some problem affects a particular group of people disproportionately and when that group is itself powerless to fix the problem, well then the situation is fucked. Especially if those who do have the power to fix the problem instead choose to wash their hands of it.