Live data from Hacker News

Our Universities: The Outrageous Reality

nybooks.com

21–30 of 34 posts

Re: Our Universities: The Outrageous Reality

#21
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

prestige is a combination of fame and selectivity I recall a debate on the value of college( Peter Thiel vs some college admins) and Thiel asking his opponent (a university administrator) if Harvard is providing such a great value to the world why are they making it so hard to obtain for people? Good question.

Wouldn't the answer be the same reason not everyone is accepted into YC, or why Thiel doesn't personally fund everyone under the sun?

No.

Re: Our Universities: The Outrageous Reality

#22

I wonder if there'd be room for a true alternative to an elite college. I've always felt that the value of such institutions was that it is the premier place to meet and befriend other smart students, not in the facilities or instructors who make up the bulk of the cost. Imagine: thousands of applicants from around the world vie for a spot in Nollege, a new kind of edtech startup. Admitted students are flown to the "…

That's a more high-flown version of what used to be called a "Java school": Pure job training, no theory, no concept of advancing the field. Also no concept of teaching people things which will be useful when the specific skills they learned are out of date, let alone skills which might transfer to other fields or have a non-obvious application in the CS field. English (as in "analysis of texts") comes to mind.

I'm not opposed to such schools, I just think they should advertise themselves honestly, and not try to compete with four-year schools for the same reason McDonald's doesn't try to compete with a steak house.

Re: Our Universities: The Outrageous Reality

#23
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

prestige is a combination of fame and selectivity I recall a debate on the value of college( Peter Thiel vs some college admins) and Thiel asking his opponent (a university administrator) if Harvard is providing such a great value to the world why are they making it so hard to obtain for people? Good question.

Wouldn't the answer be the same reason not everyone is accepted into YC, or why Thiel doesn't personally fund everyone under the sun?

Nobody is pretending that receiving money from Peter Thiel makes you better at whatever it is you do.

But a lot of people, such as Harvard admissions, do pretend that attending Harvard has such benefits.

In contrast, no one at Harvard is pretending that they couldn't afford to enroll ten times as many students.

Put another way, Thiel fundamentally doesn't fund most people because most people are bad investments. Harvard admissions isn't claiming that it won't admit you because you're a bad investment and would devalue their brand. They're claiming that, if you were admitted, the experience of attending Harvard would increase your personal quality, but they nevertheless won't admit you for undisclosed reasons.

Re: Our Universities: The Outrageous Reality

#24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm completely flummoxed by the notion that universities need a private justice system. The potential for abuse is staggering.

While you might be flummoxed, colleges & universities are facing substantial federal pressure to have this kind of system.

> colleges & universities are facing substantial federal pressure to have this kind of system

That's the part to be flummoxed about

Re: Our Universities: The Outrageous Reality

#25
post #10
post #6

I find it amazing that someone can write so much about the cost of college, and yet treat tuition bills as if they were handed down on stone tablets at Mt. Sinai, rather than something colleges themselves might have any responsibility for. Colleges have become giant money-sucking machines, similar to Scientology. In fact, they're so similar that I made a handy comparison chart ( http://rationalconspiracy.com/2015/06/…

I'd like to echo drjesusphd and ask if you could point us to any good information you've found on increasing per-student expenditures. My university likes to justify increasing tuition by pointing to a decrease in the proportion of a student's education that is funded by the state. The implication, is that per-student state funding has gone down and that's why tuition is going up, but state funding per student has re…

The funding numbers I've found for the University of California system are that per-student expenditures are roughly flat, and that tuition increases are almost 1-for-1 offsets for decreasing state funding. Here is a little ASCII table of the state funding history I collected in 2012: http://www.kmjn.org/misc/uc_funding.txt

I have no idea how representative this is of other universities, though, and wouldn't be surprised if it isn't.

Re: Our Universities: The Outrageous Reality

#26
post #6

I find it amazing that someone can write so much about the cost of college, and yet treat tuition bills as if they were handed down on stone tablets at Mt. Sinai, rather than something colleges themselves might have any responsibility for. Colleges have become giant money-sucking machines, similar to Scientology. In fact, they're so similar that I made a handy comparison chart ( http://rationalconspiracy.com/2015/06/…

So where is all the extra tuition money going?

Re: Our Universities: The Outrageous Reality

#27
post #6

I find it amazing that someone can write so much about the cost of college, and yet treat tuition bills as if they were handed down on stone tablets at Mt. Sinai, rather than something colleges themselves might have any responsibility for. Colleges have become giant money-sucking machines, similar to Scientology. In fact, they're so similar that I made a handy comparison chart ( http://rationalconspiracy.com/2015/06/…

So where is all the extra tuition money going?

The administrators

Re: Our Universities: The Outrageous Reality

#28
post #15
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to echo drjesusphd and ask if you could point us to any good information you've found on increasing per-student expenditures. My university likes to justify increasing tuition by pointing to a decrease in the proportion of a student's education that is funded by the state. The implication, is that per-student state funding has gone down and that's why tuition is going up, but state funding per student has re…

> It leads one to wonder what exactly they're spending all the extra money on. I just looked up the operating budget for my alma mater (Oregon State University), and if I'm reading it correctly, administrative costs are about 1/3 of the total. Interestingly, the direct instruction and research portion increased 5% since last year whereas the administration portion increased 15%. And looking back 10 years, the the dir…

This is the same as in any organization. The wealth filters to those who run it.

Re: Our Universities: The Outrageous Reality

#29

I wonder if there'd be room for a true alternative to an elite college. I've always felt that the value of such institutions was that it is the premier place to meet and befriend other smart students, not in the facilities or instructors who make up the bulk of the cost. Imagine: thousands of applicants from around the world vie for a spot in Nollege, a new kind of edtech startup. Admitted students are flown to the "…

What you're describing sounds a lot like Antioch College used to be (not sure if it still is). They had requirements for students to spend semesters on work experience, while campus life was pretty loose. They closed for a few years but then reopened... Not sure how they are now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antioch_College

Re: Our Universities: The Outrageous Reality

#30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is fair. Modern society expects universities to act in loco parentis. We expect them to prevent (or deal with the fall out from) school's alcohol culture. We expect them to prevent sexual assault, or respond to it with some kind of judicial system. We expect a fully staffed career center to help students revise resumes and draft cover letters. We expect them to have a full time staffer dealing with…

I'm completely flummoxed by the notion that universities need a private justice system. The potential for abuse is staggering.

As I understand it, they're not justice systems that carry the full legtimacy of the government (they can't put you in prison, for example). It's a system by which they can carry out administrative punishments like community service, suspension, or expulsion.

The potential for abuse is certainly there, but calling it a seperate justice system is a tad disingenuous. Most importantly, it seems that the standards for evidence and the rights of the accused are far less than in real courts.

But how do you solve this? My opinion is that severe things like expulsion should only be considered if found guilty of a felony (or even only a violent felony) in an actual court of law. The difficulty of conviction is a feature, not a bug, of the legitimate justice system. Administrative punishments should only be meted out for administrative "crimes" (cheating, violating housing agreements, etc) that have no corresponding crime in the criminal code.

Post reply on HN