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This Industry is Fucked

blog.jessfraz.com

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Re: This Industry is Fucked

#281

Post by rdrake98 »

jessaustin wrote: post #256
rdrake98 wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think shoeluckpotland's original post was wrong to to call those involved in the posited conspiracy, faking both sides, SJWs. The giveaway there being 'faking both sides'. That's how I would see it. It doesn't make it any less horrible for a woman like Jessie being verbally attacked of course. I thought the post was otherwise great, floating what I feel is an important idea to consider. I've never tried to write on…

Go to https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=rdrake98 and set "showdead" to "yes". Then you'll still see posts that have been flagged and deaded.

Thanks.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#282

Post by rdrake98 »

knowtheory wrote: post #251
rdrake98 wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're interpreting my first three posts on HN as "trying to minimize the source of harassment"? Because that is a lie. If you persist in spreading it I'm likely to give up my embryonic life as a contributor here. I don't think you have any reason to do this to me or the OP, based on what he's written, but I get the idea. Nasty place to make a mark, despite the value I've accrued as lurker for a number of years. T…

You're clearly not interested in actually engaging in a conversation, so, like i said before, i hope you can find ways to be excellent to others. Have a good one.

That I found less annoying than your previous post. It's infuriating to be told that I'm not interested in actually engaging in a conversation when I'm sure that I am but it's less annoying than the implicatures in the previous one so thanks.

One thing it might be worth mentioning: my commercial experience of the software industry goes back to 1980. It's only with the advent of social media built on the Web that I've ever heard (those assumed to be) programmers express such horrific and hateful things to women. It incredibly bothers me.

Does that give some context for the kinds of things I'd be interested to discuss here?

I'd also still be grateful to know how exactly the OP became [flagged] though, thanks to jessaustin, I can now see it again personally.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#283

Post by chroma »

anthonyb wrote: post #266
chroma wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would strongly advise against backing OAPI. The CEO & founder is Randi Harper. Her online persona is quite hostile, and she is often the instigator of online harassment. One of my acquaintances was the target of her ire. Her e-mails and call-outs eventually caused him to seek psychiatric help, including medication. So while I support the goal of OAPI, I think the founding members have attitudes that hurt the cause…

See points 2 and 5 above: you're part of the problem. In addition, labelling Randi as a "harasser" is a common gamergate tactic.

I'm sorry if you think I'm part of the problem, but I don't see how those two points relate to my comment. Heck, I agree with pretty much everything shkyes said.

I didn't know labelling Randi Harper a harasser was a gamergate tactic. I know almost nothing about this whole gamergate business. I just visited the OAPI's site and recognized the name Randi Harper from my acquaintance's experience. He had a very rough time because of her emails, Facebook messages, and tweets. For that reason and that reason alone, I voiced my concern. I don't have any other motive.

Digging deeper, I see that Harper herself has been on the receiving end of some outright egregious behavior. I can only express my condolences for her and condemnation for her attackers.

Still, it seems to me that her organization will likely cause more harm than good in curbing online abuse. One can feel sympathy for another human being while also doubting their fit for a position.

But honestly, this whole topic is radioactive. No matter one's opinion or how delicately it is put, it gets misconstrued and pigeonholed. It's impossible to have an honest, nuanced conversation.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#284

Post by purp »

throwawayihz wrote: post #275
purp wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a particular follower of Randi's and still couldn't help but see the Vivek stuff going on. I wouldn't have labeled it harassment; what I saw was a loud and unrelenting public call for accountability. I don't believe she threatened, doxxed, or otherwise harassed him. Do you know differently? What I would call harassment is that Randi was doxxed as well as swatted, seemingly by the same sort of folks involved i…

Is she standing up for her rights here too by doxxing the CEO of a debt collection agency? https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CI3Z7hwUcAAZs3r.png

As I mentioned, I'm not a particular follower of hers; I guess I should have mentioned I'm also not her apologist.

Sorry I can't answer your question. I don't know what she was doing in that tweet; you provided no context. It's clear you believe you have the answer, though, and that you care enough to create a throwaway account; pull up a four year old tweet; and present in a discussion that really isn't about Randi. Seems like she's important to you.

Hope you got what you were looking for.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#285

Post by tzs »

tptacek wrote: post #280
tzs wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear, what I mean by "empty" is that the harm will be from the effects of receiving the message. The message is not a warning of an upcoming attack--it itself is the attack. I assume this because I haven't seen any stats showing otherwise, and so I'm assuming that those making these threats are similar to those who make similar threats against athletes and entertainers, which we have more experience with. The…

No, you've missed my point. I'm saying that your analysis is fixated on the idea that e.g. a rape threat predicts a rape. I'm saying, "sure, maybe you're right", and rape threats really don't predict rapes. But they probably do predict other threats: career damage, reputation damage from forged posts, online breakin attempts, &c.

Ah...yeah, I was focusing on things directed directly to the victim in this part, not on things about the victim directed to third parties or the general public.

I would suggest education to combat that--as part of teaching kids early about nasty trolls and how to handle them, teach them that they have to be skeptical of negative personal information about people they get from strangers on the internet.

However, I fear that would probably not work. Easily believing rumors without good (or even barely plausible...) evidence seems to be a general tendency of people. Hell, people will believe that bike lanes are part of a UN plot to take away the guns of American civilians [1], so I suppose I should not be surprised that they would readily believe a rumor that someone slept their way into a job or distributed child pornography of their own kids or stole someone else's work.

I currently have no ideas on how to effectively fix this.

[1] I wish I were making that up...

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#286

Post by magicalist »

Nadya wrote: post #267
zaccus wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IDK, she's talking about hundreds of vile personal messages. Sounds like more than one a$$hat to me. And I can't help but notice that as a man I don't get this kind of abuse at all. Literally 0 rape threats. I think when this kind of thing happens it should be called out. Sunlight is a great disinfectant.

>And I can't help but notice that as a man I don't get this kind of abuse at all. Literally 0 rape threats. Men rarely send men rape threats. A woman threatening a man with rape usually isn't seen as threatening due to power dynamics between the sexes (good luck overpowering the man to rape him?) So that doesn't come as a large surprise to anyone. But a large number of men do receive death threats and threats to thei…

Actually I've done a good number of talks at tech conferences, and while I've gotten a few choice Youtube comments, I've never gotten any of the kind of shit thrown at me that female colleagues in a similar position have. The same kind of stuff described in this post.

And it's not exactly clear from your post why we should throw up our hands at a threat to someone's children, either.

> Somehow that gets interpreted as "This is okay, we endorse it. We aren't going to do anything about it."

Yes, telling someone that they shouldn't talk about the bad thing happening to them, that they should just get over it, is condoning it. Oh, no need for them to get into the particulars! I can just assume I've already experienced exactly whatever they're going to say and just tell them, "well, that's the internet for you".

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#287

Post by magicalist »

astrocyte wrote: post #111
alaroldai wrote: post #80

Every time I see posts like this, I see people commenting on it with varying statement to the effect of "that's a shame, but most people in tech aren't like that", or "I'm so tired of seeing posts like this, quit making a fuss." And that makes me so angry. Sure, maybe not everyone in the industry is an arsehole. But enough people are, and those people are vocal enough, that a significant number of people feel disgust…

It makes you angry to think? Is this the modern day internet in which lots of individuals say stupid things to get a rise out of people (troll for the lulz)? or is it a tech industry problem Turn your base emotions off for a second and try to use your higher level brain facilities to target the actual root of this. I'm an african-american in tech. Lots has happened to me. What has ever happened to you such that you c…

> So, you're emotional.. angry about someone trolling a woman. So, you're going to go on an irrational rampage and fight any man to death who tries to bring clarity to the issue beyond your emotional white knighting? Cheers man.. you're no better than the trolls who function on the same base instinct

Yes, we call this sort of thing a straw man.

I do enjoy, however, that the OP is blogging "because she feels she's the center of the world"[1], alaroldai is an irrational, rampaging white knight, but you're just bringing clarity to the issue. No, you don't seem irrationally invested in the issue in the slightest.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9836257

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#288

Post by Nadya »

magicalist wrote: post #286
Nadya wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And I can't help but notice that as a man I don't get this kind of abuse at all. Literally 0 rape threats. Men rarely send men rape threats. A woman threatening a man with rape usually isn't seen as threatening due to power dynamics between the sexes (good luck overpowering the man to rape him?) So that doesn't come as a large surprise to anyone. But a large number of men do receive death threats and threats to thei…

Actually I've done a good number of talks at tech conferences, and while I've gotten a few choice Youtube comments, I've never gotten any of the kind of shit thrown at me that female colleagues in a similar position have. The same kind of stuff described in this post. And it's not exactly clear from your post why we should throw up our hands at a threat to someone's children, either. > Somehow that gets interpreted a…

Ever heard of the expression "Don't feed the trolls"? Most of the threats people get are non-serious. Two decades of internet experience tells me that very, very, very, very, very few individually targeted threats ever actually get enacted. So yes, you pretend they don't happen and don't give them the attention they desire.

In fact - the police will tell you not to talk about the threat after you report it to them. Discussing the threat gives them an audience, which is what many legitimate psychopaths desire. Someone to "watch their work" after it's been done. It's better to stay silent and let police investigate (and if they don't investigate, chances are they don't think it's a serious threat or there isn't anything they can do besides put you under police protection).

Also what do you expect individuals to do against an anonymous threat? Console you? Flame a throwaway account? When you talk about it and everyone tells you "Yeah, it happens to me too. Just ignore it." What's their to talk about? That it happens? Yes. We know it happens. There's nothing you can actually do about it.

To steal an example someone else used: spam email.

There's little you can do to prevent spam emails (only try and intelligently filter them). Spam email is going to happen whether you like it or not, whether you talk about it or not, and everyone gets spam email and everyone hates spam email. We aren't supporting spam by not wanting to talk about spam. We just don't talk about it because there is nothing to talk about. You ignore it. It's a part of the world we live in and openly talking about "I get spam email all the time this sucks!" isn't helping to stop the spam problem. After a point, people would prefer you would just shut up about spam emails. Us not caring to discuss something we have no control over doesn't mean we agree with it. It means it's pointless to discuss. Perhaps pick an issue that people have some control over that could be solved.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#289

Post by douche »

qmalxp wrote: post #60
obstacle1 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're being a bit overbroad in speaking for all women (that's the kind of thinking which leads to sexism in the first place). Frankly the 'consequences' here are receiving a bunch of unsavoury PMs. i.e., there are no real-world, physical, dangerous consequences. So the fear of contributing to a community because of it is unfounded. It's just a side-effect of Internet culture, and it happens to men too.

If someone sent you an email every day from different email addresses with the same text saying they were going to rape and murder you, and included your home address, pictures of your family and pictures of weapons, that wouldn't bother you? How do you know there are no real-world consequences? You're just gonna assume it's some 14-year-old kid trolling you and not one of the many insane people in this world who mig…

The day I seriously worry about a 14-year old internet wanktard harassing me in my home is probably also the day that I go to jail for blowing away said internet wanktard because they were unlucky enough to threaten me in my home whilst I was there.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#290

Post by magicalist »

Nadya wrote: post #288
magicalist wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually I've done a good number of talks at tech conferences, and while I've gotten a few choice Youtube comments, I've never gotten any of the kind of shit thrown at me that female colleagues in a similar position have. The same kind of stuff described in this post. And it's not exactly clear from your post why we should throw up our hands at a threat to someone's children, either. > Somehow that gets interpreted a…

Ever heard of the expression "Don't feed the trolls"? Most of the threats people get are non-serious. Two decades of internet experience tells me that very, very, very, very, very few individually targeted threats ever actually get enacted. So yes, you pretend they don't happen and don't give them the attention they desire. In fact - the police will tell you not to talk about the threat after you report it to them. D…

The problem is you're assuming that only carried-through threats are the problem here (that sheer volume of fucked up comments don't make eventually make it unpleasant to work in an industry), and that everyone reacts to threats the same way you do ("very few rape threats come to pass, therefore I feel fine walking to my car alone right now").

> In fact - the police will tell you not to talk about the threat after you report it to them.

No, they don't. They may tell you to not say anything if there's an ongoing investigation, but that's about it.

> Discussing the threat gives them an audience, which is what many legitimate psychopaths desire.

Not usually, but most people making these comments are not psychopaths anyways, and are part of the same industry as the rest of us (why else are they watching tech talks?), and do not stand well with their comments in the light of day.

> and if they don't investigate, chances are they don't think it's a serious threat or there isn't anything they can do besides put you under police protection

Go to a major city and get mugged, at gunpoint even, then report your missing wallet and/or phone to the police. Then let me know as soon as they catch the crook and you get your stuff back. I won't wait up.

It's beyond me why people see this sort of thing all the time from police, then presuppose that same force, with little technical training, will get right on those online death threats and catch the person behind them. Unless you attract major attention (and retain it), little is going to be done for you.

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