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This Industry is Fucked

blog.jessfraz.com

241–250 of 311 posts

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think refusing to take blame for the acts of others is sweeping anything under the rug.

Nobody is blaming you. They are asking you to take responsibility for your professional community. Will you?

>Nobody is blaming you.

>The Industry Is Fucked.

That's my industry that's fucked. Not some random people on the internet, not some assholes in a convention. The statement is that the entire industry that I participate in, interact with and identify with is fucked.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#242
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That should be enough to tell you that even if the majority are lovely people, the industry as a whole still has a problem. Is that really the case, though? If there's a violent criminal in a town, does the town as a whole have problem? Is the whole town to blame for the acts of that individual? We should do what we can to stop this sort of abuse and make things better, but why do we have to spend so much time alloc…

To continue along your analogy, that would be akin to the local population saying "there's need to involve police forces, it's only the one guy" "Just because there's a violent criminal in town doesn't mean we have to do anything about it, we're on the whole nice people" Instead of you know, assisting the police with their enquiries, teaching their kids it's not ok to slice open people, volunteering for search partie…

You kind of missed the analogy - we should do all of those things. The problem is that the acts of the violent criminal are being treated as the acts of the whole town.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#243
post #54
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Not common?" Really? This SEEMS pretty common. And while I believe it's true that not every woman in tech gets harassed, it's obvious that a much higher percentage of them get this sort of shit than men. And it only gets worse as they get more visible for the good work that they're doing. You say you're tired of this shit. How do you think these women feel? It's not you writing the tweets and emails, but if you beco…

> if you say "that's just how it is some times" you are a part of the problem. Come again? How is astrocyte part of Jessie's problem? People are responsible for their own choices, not the choices of others. > Never say it's OK. Although I agree, I don't think astrocyte is saying that harassment is OK. (I assume that's what you're referring to.)

It's easy to say that this happens all the time, urge folks to call the cops, let them deal with it, and otherwise don't make a big deal.

So here's the thing: people have been calling the cops; the cops are ill-equipped to deal with this. The inherent structure of police agencies in the U.S. is oriented around physical communities and jurisdictions. More than 5/6 of the sworn officers are below the federal level, thus not easily able to pursue investigations across state lines.[1] but it's easier to push this conveniently to being a problem for the cops than it is to think and choose to act.

You could instead:

* lobby your congressperson and senators to start a federal reporting program. * develop a set of tools that helps narrow the source of these threats, along with a toolkit of self-serve legal forms to demand IP information so victims can submit full evidence to police * support EFF and others who are helping fight this * stop blaming the victim

mholt, you ask how Astrocyte's is part of Jesse's problem. Here's how:

* Astrocyte is assuming that none of this has already been done. * Astrocyte is refusing to do some research and learn about the current state of affairs before minimizing the concerns of people actually experiencing the problem. * Astrocyte is demanding that victims prove they've met Astrocyte's standards before those victims are supposed to raise broad-based concerns publicly. * Astrocyte is writing this off as an isolated thing despite it clearly being more than that. * Astrocyte is doing so publicly while implicitly urging others to do the same.

Astrocyte is choosing to push this problem away and say it's not as big, as wide, as common, or as horrific as it is. That's Astrocyte's choice. People are responsible for their own choices.

Astrocyte is part of the problem.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_in_the_Unite...

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#244
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can't do anything to stop trolls online [...] So painfully wrong. There are many things you can do, including not giving up and walking off. You just have to decide you've had enough and are willing to do hard work. Speak out, even when it's not in your own best interest. Support people who are targeted. And, last but not least, don't pick pedantic points to argue while losing sight of the main issue: it absolu…

I am not trolling I am just being a realist here. I recognize that it totally sucks, and it does seem to be harder for women in certain arenas because they are targeted by trolls more heavily. That being said, this comment is wishy-washy feel good fluff, and doesn't address the real issue. If i was being harassed online how would I employ these tactics? These are just cliche motivational phrases. > not giving up and…

It's disingenuous to switch from your original context in which you, a bystander, urge listeners to believe that this is an unsolvable problem, to the context of the victim, which you aren't.

If you, the bystander, decide to take a stand rather than write this off as too hard a problem to solve, you help the victim by giving them support, and you help future victims by decreasing, however slightly, the chance that harassers will continue to believe that their behavior is tolerable.

If you, the bystander, are willing to spend time on one person who doesn't yet understand but who may be willing to think, and then to move from thought to action, your efforts gain leverage and that minuscule probability decrease becomes larger.

If you, the bystander, continue to do this, even without being a victim yourself; if you do this in places your voice can be heard; if you do this even when you gain no personal benefit, you hopefully influence the people around you to at least think deeper, and from there, to act in some way that fits with their conscience. And in doing so, you give the victims hope for a day when this isn't their norm.

It's not a clogged sink. It's also not an intractable problem.

So let's fix it.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#245
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just so you know, the OAPI is run by Randi Harper, who herself has harassed many people. Most notably Vivek Wadhwa and Claire Schumann, but there are more names on that list. I wish you luck in tracking down the guilty parties. Threats are not okay, no matter who makes them.

I'm not a particular follower of Randi's and still couldn't help but see the Vivek stuff going on. I wouldn't have labeled it harassment; what I saw was a loud and unrelenting public call for accountability. I don't believe she threatened, doxxed, or otherwise harassed him. Do you know differently? What I would call harassment is that Randi was doxxed as well as swatted, seemingly by the same sort of folks involved i…

I'd count publicly accusing him of harassing, intimidating, and trying to silence women [1] as harassment.

[1] http://www.stopthegrbullies.com/2015/06/01/randi-harpers-bul...

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>we as an industry troll our women and minorities Is one person enough to blame the entire industry? Or two? Perhaps 10% of the industry is trolling women and minorities. Is there any evidence of that level of participation? >In order to "un-fuck" this industry, we do need to accept that we do this. This sort of ultimatum is exactly the thing that promotes hostility against confronting these issues. If somebody wants…

OK, fair point. So you don't like taking blame for other people's bad actions, even if those others are part of your community. I get that. We're also having that discussion around Islam too. But to my mind, this is what makes a community a community. If good things happen we all share credit, so when bad things happen we all share blame. We, collectively, respond to events together. And we police ourselves, which is…

> So yes, if one of us behaves like an asshole then we as a community take responsibility for that, deal with the asshole, and apologize to the victim.

This is where I see the problem... We aren't a town, or a single company, or a government. There's no Computer Science union. So how do you propose we 'deal with' these assholes?

The tech 'community' really doesn't have a lot of power over its members. There isn't any singular accreditation association, there isn't a bar exam to get in. You don't need a membership in the ACM or IEEE to get or hold a job. Sometimes, you don't even need a college degree to get a job in the industry. The only thing unifying the tech community is an interest in technology.

Conceivably we could coordinate and ostracize / not hire problematic members.... but that's not a road we should go down (who determines when someone is being problematic?), and even if it was there would still be companies hiring outside of the loop.

And even then... most of this kind of harassment happens from anonymous accounts. If you know who they are, maybe you notify their employer about their behavior. Maybe, call the cops. But how do you 'deal with' an asshole like this if you don't even know who they are?

I'm not blaming the victim here - harassment is a major problem that needs to be addressed. But this is the internet - harassment is easy, regardless of whether you're next door or on another continent. The best defense is privacy.

I run a small blog, just posting some of the projects I work on. I had an issue with some obnoxious comments - nothing like this, but annoying nonetheless. So I dealt with it in the simplest way - my blog doesn't have comments enabled anymore. It doesn't list my email, my home address, or my phone number. There is a simple version of my resume on the blog, but the only way to contact me from my website is via LinkedIn.

I agree that we share responsibility for the actions of members of our community. I disagree that the tech industry is one large community.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't answer a key question: The thing is, the harassment that Jessie is facing could literally be one person, right? Do you deny that?

I'm sorry, why is that question a relevant one? Would it matter to the author whether it was one person or many in her specific case? Would it make the harassment any less troubling or alarming? Would it matter to the general case, since the author's story of harassment is certainly not a unique one in our industry? So what point would the answer to your question prove one way or the other? Not much. Which is also wh…

So you're interpreting my first three posts on HN as "trying to minimize the source of harassment"? Because that is a lie. If you persist in spreading it I'm likely to give up my embryonic life as a contributor here. I don't think you have any reason to do this to me or the OP, based on what he's written, but I get the idea. Nasty place to make a mark, despite the value I've accrued as lurker for a number of years.

The tentative interpretation of the OP makes the evil of the attack even worse than you think it is. Can't you see that? This doesn't make the OP's interpretation right but it's a clear consequence.

And nobody has answered another question of mine: the rules by which the OP has been suppressed and whether these can be reversed.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't answer a key question: The thing is, the harassment that Jessie is facing could literally be one person, right? Do you deny that?

I'm sorry, why is that question a relevant one? Would it matter to the author whether it was one person or many in her specific case? Would it make the harassment any less troubling or alarming? Would it matter to the general case, since the author's story of harassment is certainly not a unique one in our industry? So what point would the answer to your question prove one way or the other? Not much. Which is also wh…

On the relevance of the question I saw one right away but I'll leave that until you make clear the various slurs you make do not apply to me here.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think refusing to take blame for the acts of others is sweeping anything under the rug.

Nobody is blaming you. They are asking you to take responsibility for your professional community. Will you?

But is it really my community? The 'tech industry' is very broad - a software engineer at Google, a computer engineer at IBM, a Sysadmin at AT&T, a computer scientist at Volvo - they're all considered members of the tech industry.

Half of the industry has probably never attended a conference of any sort. 3/4 of the industry probably don't have personal blogs, or a GitHub.

There's no bar association or union or anything. You don't even need a degree to get hired. Grouping, say, an embedded systems specialist and a PHP dev into the 'tech community' is like grouping a welder and an auto mechanic into the 'construction community'. There are similarities, sure, but very little influence between groups.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#250
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they're insecure and want attention - if they can elicit a response from her then a woman has acknowledged their existence. Or because they feel innately that they are superior to women because they are male, and then cant comprehend that she is more prominent than they are, which makes them angry. Immaturity essentially, given teeth by the anonymous power of the net and some distorted belief in freedom of sp…

> Or because they feel innately that they are superior to women because they are male, and then cant comprehend that she is more prominent than they are, which makes them angry. http://www.sorrywatch.com/2015/04/05/everyone-deserves-a-sec... Mo’ne Davis got famous for being the first girl to pitch a shutout in the Little League World Series at 13. She also plays basketball and football - she is very talented athletic…

Athletics tends to support arrested development. I have a hard time regarding a college baseball player, even one who almost certainly is taller than I am and packs a lot more lean mass, as a "grown man." I do hope that the athletic director at his school had a long talk with him that will make him think a long time before doing anything remotely like this again.
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