Earlier quoted context omitted.
Half-Australian and half-Estonian here; I can only agree with your sentiment. It seems to me that decades of corruption, tax avoidance and financial mismanagement is responsible for the position that Greece is in today, and I don't see why it is necessary for other countries to reward such behaviour with continued support and understanding. You don't like the terms of financial support offered by the EU? Well, maybe…
So what do you think of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Agreement_on_German_Ext... ? Perhaps everyone in Germany would be better off still re-paying that 50% that was just removed.
Greeks Reject Bailout Terms
361–370 of 412 posts
Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms
#362Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not to mention what is actually happening here -- publicizing private debts. Why should European taxpayers be on the hook for risky bets made by Deutschebank et al? That's what's really going on here. Nearly all of the bail out funds received by Greece have gone to paying back debt. Which sounds like a good, moral thing. But what that actually means is that public money (IMF or ECB loans, backed by governments and th…
First, a minor point: The biggest holders of Greek debt were French banks by far, followed by UK banks and only then German banks. So when you say "Deutschebank, Goldman Sachs, etc." what you mean is BNP Paribas. But if you don't even know which banks—or countries—were involved, it raises questions. And I have no idea why you tossed Goldman Sachs in there; they never held significant amounts of Greek debt. They helpe…
2) The haircut was in 2012. Interest rates in the decade-long run-up leading to the crisis was 5-7%. I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to calculate how long it takes to make up a 25% loss at those rates (hint: less than the 10-year maturity period of the bond).
> the only real holders of Greek debt left are the troika and domestic Greek institutions.
Which was my point.
Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms
#363What's most interesting to me in this entire crisis is the moral discourse surrounding debt. More often than not, you'll hear stuff like: "Of course Greece must pay its debt", "You mean to say you can just take money and not pay?", "Why should taxpayers bail Greece out?"... All the while, there is absolute ZERO condemnation for banking entities making risky loans. There is not even a tacit nod towards acknowledging t…
Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms
#364Earlier quoted context omitted.
The fact that you are convinced that Germany acted in Greece's best interest is what sets us apart. Your money went mainly to your Banks, via Greece. Concluding, I'd rather go back to the Drachma and blow the Euro project than die starving becuase it suits your country's political class. ps. Even if Greece doesn't put the last nail on the coffin of the EU-project, I'm 100% sure that the UK will.
> Your money went mainly to your Banks, via Greece. Suppose you have a €500 credit card bill. That bill represents euros you have spent (plus interest). If I pay that bill for you it frees €500, which would have previously serviced debt, for other things. It would be disingenuous to say "I gave the money to the bank, so it only helped them and not you." French and German banks did get bailed out of their bad credit d…
Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms
#365Fairplay to them, the whole point of the EU project was to make us all "Europeans" and to prevent constant disastrous fighting between states and people of the continent. Sometime in the last 10 years many people and the media in the "core" countries got all smug and uppity towards those lazy "peripherals" and so on forgetting exactly why the project was started, overnight we stopped being "Europeans" and became "und…
It's a similar issue that we see in the US. There are a number of people (and the entire Constitution) that pushes for state level decisions unless it's absolutely necessary at the Federal level. This approach creates a more unified country because people are able to make their own decisions and live with them. States are able to compete economically. People are able to move within the country to states with policies…
Depending on the economic climate and regulatory environment, this kind of "competition" tends to be a race to the bottom. Those who have even a slight advantage anyway (i.e., the rich) are given concessions such as tax cuts or eroded worker's rights that increase their advantages over time.
The great human project of using technology to lift everyone up equally requires some force against this race to the bottom.
Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms
#366Earlier quoted context omitted.
Calm the hyperbole :) GP is right that the EU is the result of a long process that started with the goal of preventing another big European war. You are also right in that a large part of what is happening is a result of power politics.
> Calm the hyperbole :) Hyperbole? The E.U. is a project spearheaded by the same 3-4 nations that had the biggest colonies on earth, enslaving over 2 billion people in horrendous conditions (including mass executions when they misbehaved). And that was going on, not in the middle ages, but until the sixties (and in a different form today). Betweem them, the country that had the less colonies, started 2 world wars in…
After all, you write: "EU was created, among other things, to contain that country", while my post was in reply to somebody who claimed that peace-keeping was totally irrelevant to why the EU (and its predecessors) were formed.
Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms
#367Earlier quoted context omitted.
kinda... Yanis and tsiprias have been consistently clear - any deal must include debt restructuring. No sane person wants more debt looking at Greece's repayments levels, especially after 2020. The "No" vote, to my understanding, strengthens their demand to have whole debt restructuring included in this deal - not put off till later. Edit: this is a "strengthened hand", but subtly different to using that hand just to…
And nobody sane would give Greece Yet Another Debt Restructuring without seeing reforms actually implemented first.
Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms
#368Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms
#369Earlier quoted context omitted.
First, a minor point: The biggest holders of Greek debt were French banks by far, followed by UK banks and only then German banks. So when you say "Deutschebank, Goldman Sachs, etc." what you mean is BNP Paribas. But if you don't even know which banks—or countries—were involved, it raises questions. And I have no idea why you tossed Goldman Sachs in there; they never held significant amounts of Greek debt. They helpe…
1) The number of greek bond holders is numerous, obviously. I named the banks I thought people would know. There's a reason I tacked "et al" at the end. Any guesses why France is the strongest supporter of Germany in the Troika? 2) The haircut was in 2012. Interest rates in the decade-long run-up leading to the crisis was 5-7%. I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to calculate how long it takes to make up a 25%…
But not the ones who actually held significant amounts of greek debt.
> Any guesses why France is the strongest supporter of Germany in the Troika?
French banks already lost the money. At best this might explain why they supported Germany in 2010-2012, and that's assuming that France was acting in the interests of French banks and not the French government which, as already covered, they weren't. You're suggesting an explanation which makes no sense to explain things that didn't actually happen.
> 2) The haircut was in 2012. Interest rates in the decade-long run-up leading to the crisis was 5-7%. I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to calculate how long it takes to make up a 25% loss at those rates (hint: less than the 10-year maturity period of the bond).
First, it was a 75%+ loss, not a 25% loss. Best case, if a bank made a 10 year bond, sat on it for 9 years and 11 months, and then went through a haircut, they still lost a bunch of money.
Second, even if it had been a 25% loss (which, again, it wasn't), they still wouldn't have come out ahead; you're ignoring their opportunity cost, cost of capital, etc. You're also ignoring the fact that the people who made the loans were mostly not the people holding them when the music stopped. It's the same mistake you made when you mentioned Goldman Sachs, who made money helping Greece cook their books but didn't hold Greek debt*
Third, BNP Paribas and the other banks lost billions of euros; it did not come out ahead, or even close to it.
Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms
#370I am astouned by all the comments, who say that "Greeks were getting a shitty deal" or that the bailout terms were somewhat "unfair". Facts are: Greece had a spending deficit for several decades now. This spending deficit accumulated to such a big dept, that no investors were willing to lend greece any more money. 18 european countries transferred billions of euros in the last couple of years to greece, to help the c…
Wow the amount of ignorance in this comment is staggering. Many countries have deficits for decades. Greece’s debt ballooned once we entered the Eurozone. From the hundreds of billions given as loans less than 20% went to our economy. Most were used to bailout EU banks, namely French and German ones. Greece never lived up to the agreement? Then how on earth did our GDP fall by 30% in five years? How come unemployment…
If you feel your country is owed money from Germany then by all means go and try to collect it so that you can apply it to your +350 Billion Euro debt. Although, I have a feeling that the money Germany owes you is just a drop in the bucket for what you owe.
Congratulations on your "No" vote and good luck on your exit from the Euro.