Greeks Reject Bailout Terms • Hacker News Board

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#91

Post by NotableAlamode » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 9:12 PM UTC

atmosx wrote: post #43

paskster wrote: post #23

I am astouned by all the comments, who say that "Greeks were getting a shitty deal" or that the bailout terms were somewhat "unfair". Facts are: Greece had a spending deficit for several decades now. This spending deficit accumulated to such a big dept, that no investors were willing to lend greece any more money. 18 european countries transferred billions of euros in the last couple of years to greece, to help the c…

The fact that you are convinced that Germany acted in Greece's best interest is what sets us apart. Your money went mainly to your Banks, via Greece. Concluding, I'd rather go back to the Drachma and blow the Euro project than die starving becuase it suits your country's political class. ps. Even if Greece doesn't put the last nail on the coffin of the EU-project, I'm 100% sure that the UK will.

    Your money went mainly to your Banks, via Greece.

And if we send bread to feed the poor, you'd book that under "your money went mainly to your bakeries". It's just dishonest. Moreover, it's even factually false that the majority of the bailout money was used for bailing out banks. Only 1/3 of the credits were used for this purpose. The rest fuelled consumption in Greece, and/or was off-shored by the greek elites.

    your Banks

You are following Syriza's xenophobia ... always blame the germans. French banks were the biggest private debtors.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#92

Post by minot » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 9:12 PM UTC

atmosx wrote: post #43

paskster wrote: post #23

I am astouned by all the comments, who say that "Greeks were getting a shitty deal" or that the bailout terms were somewhat "unfair". Facts are: Greece had a spending deficit for several decades now. This spending deficit accumulated to such a big dept, that no investors were willing to lend greece any more money. 18 european countries transferred billions of euros in the last couple of years to greece, to help the c…

The fact that you are convinced that Germany acted in Greece's best interest is what sets us apart. Your money went mainly to your Banks, via Greece. Concluding, I'd rather go back to the Drachma and blow the Euro project than die starving becuase it suits your country's political class. ps. Even if Greece doesn't put the last nail on the coffin of the EU-project, I'm 100% sure that the UK will.

> Concluding, I'd rather go back to the Drachma and blow the Euro project than die starving becuase it suits your country's political class.

Serious question: Why do you think switching currency to Drachma will solve anything? From what I've heard and read, Greece can't spend its way out of this problem because it lacks trust among creditors.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#93

Post by Lavr_Kornilov » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 9:12 PM UTC

brightball wrote: post #32

yc1010 wrote: post #3

Fairplay to them, the whole point of the EU project was to make us all "Europeans" and to prevent constant disastrous fighting between states and people of the continent. Sometime in the last 10 years many people and the media in the "core" countries got all smug and uppity towards those lazy "peripherals" and so on forgetting exactly why the project was started, overnight we stopped being "Europeans" and became "und…

It's a similar issue that we see in the US. There are a number of people (and the entire Constitution) that pushes for state level decisions unless it's absolutely necessary at the Federal level. This approach creates a more unified country because people are able to make their own decisions and live with them. States are able to compete economically. People are able to move within the country to states with policies…

The issue with this comparison is in the US the states do not in reality have balanced budgets. Most of the states receive huge subsidies from the federal government in the form of money for highways and road construction etc. This shifts the debt from the state to the federal level, something the EU is not set up to do with its weaker federal system.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#94

Post by mb_72 » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 9:13 PM UTC

paskster wrote: post #59

atmosx wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that you are convinced that Germany acted in Greece's best interest is what sets us apart. Your money went mainly to your Banks, via Greece. Concluding, I'd rather go back to the Drachma and blow the Euro project than die starving becuase it suits your country's political class. ps. Even if Greece doesn't put the last nail on the coffin of the EU-project, I'm 100% sure that the UK will.

I am very pro Euro. But I don't like the fact that a single country in Europe feels that 18 other countries have to pay their debt. These bailouts in the past were signed from the greece government in the best interest of its people. A lot of people make it seem that we (non-greece european) somewhat forced theses agreements onto greece. In fact these bailouts where were unpopular in Germany, because it cost us a lot…

Half-Australian and half-Estonian here; I can only agree with your sentiment. It seems to me that decades of corruption, tax avoidance and financial mismanagement is responsible for the position that Greece is in today, and I don't see why it is necessary for other countries to reward such behaviour with continued support and understanding. You don't like the terms of financial support offered by the EU? Well, maybe you should have thought about how your country has been run and realise that - sooner or later - that is going to cost you jobs and economic stability.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#95

Post by tptacek » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 9:13 PM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #81

tptacek wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the difference between "crippling austerity" and "keeping spending within their means"? Isn't the biggest financial problem in Greece the relative enormity of the public sector? Wouldn't fiscal reform basically amount to slashing entitlements and public sector employment?

If they devote less of their economy to debt service (my understanding is that this is why they would leave the Euro), then they can have higher consumption at a given level of economic activity. (I don't really understand the situation well enough to say whether or not they could possibly maintain the same level of activity outside of the Euro, but I think this is the logic behind that argument)

Poking around, it looks like Greek debt service as a percentage of GDP is not particularly high (it's closer to France's than to Spain's). What does Ireland's interest/GDP look like? Iceland? Those are two former basket-case economies that seem to be recovering without total bail-outs.

(I'm asking, not telling; I don't know what the answer is.)

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#96

Post by llamataboot » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 9:13 PM UTC

mnglkhn2 wrote: post #67

paskster wrote: post #23

I am astouned by all the comments, who say that "Greeks were getting a shitty deal" or that the bailout terms were somewhat "unfair". Facts are: Greece had a spending deficit for several decades now. This spending deficit accumulated to such a big dept, that no investors were willing to lend greece any more money. 18 european countries transferred billions of euros in the last couple of years to greece, to help the c…

It's like everybody all of the sudden will come to the conclusion that paying their mortgages is somehow a humiliating and oppressive endeavor. Nobody is really familiar with what the "oppressive" terms really are, but everybody feels like the Greeks are totally undeserving of paying their debts. How does everybody feel like to have their subway fares reduced to $0, the way the Greeks had them for the past decades? I…

You do realize that plenty of US states carry a "deficit" right? Many states receive more money from the Federal budget than they pay back in. We can debate why this is the case, but I don't hear anyone telling Mississippi or Alabama to suck the bitter pill of austerity or leave the US.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#97

Post by korisnik » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 9:14 PM UTC

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #83

paskster wrote: post #23

I am astouned by all the comments, who say that "Greeks were getting a shitty deal" or that the bailout terms were somewhat "unfair". Facts are: Greece had a spending deficit for several decades now. This spending deficit accumulated to such a big dept, that no investors were willing to lend greece any more money. 18 european countries transferred billions of euros in the last couple of years to greece, to help the c…

"Transfer further billions of euroes to Greece" is precisely what the troika wanted to do, in exchange for draconian austerity measures like those of the last few years, which caused a 25% drop in GDP and a rise of the debt/GDP ratio from 105% to 175% ( http://www.tradingeconomics.com/greece/government-debt-to-gd... ). The IMF themselves have said that Greek debt is unsustainable and a significant haircut is needed (…

>draconian austerity measures like those of the last few years, which caused a 25% drop in GDP and a rise of the debt/GDP ratio from 105% to 175%

Easy there. The austerity measures and the troika only came into play in 2010. After Greek government called EC-ECB-IMF because it could not solve its own crisis.

By 2010 (prior to Troika-imposed austerity), as a result of the Global Recession, Greece had already lost about 15% of its GDP and its debt had risen to about ~150% of its GDP.

It is extremely disingenuous to say that austerity caused a 25% drop in GDP or that it caused the debt/GDP ratio to go from 105% to 175%.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#98

Post by atmosx » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 9:15 PM UTC

paskster wrote: post #59

atmosx wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that you are convinced that Germany acted in Greece's best interest is what sets us apart. Your money went mainly to your Banks, via Greece. Concluding, I'd rather go back to the Drachma and blow the Euro project than die starving becuase it suits your country's political class. ps. Even if Greece doesn't put the last nail on the coffin of the EU-project, I'm 100% sure that the UK will.

I am very pro Euro. But I don't like the fact that a single country in Europe feels that 18 other countries have to pay their debt. These bailouts in the past were signed from the greece government in the best interest of its people. A lot of people make it seem that we (non-greece european) somewhat forced theses agreements onto greece. In fact these bailouts where were unpopular in Germany, because it cost us a lot…

> These bailouts in the past were signed from the greece government in the best interest of its people.

What if a country destroys, literally, the entire continent killing around 80 million ppl, 70 years ago.

What should we do with this country? Should show some solidarity and pardon it's debt or "abide to the rules" and ask them to pay their dues to all the countries they created damages?

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#99

Post by jessedhillon » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 9:16 PM UTC

brightball wrote: post #32

yc1010 wrote: post #3

Fairplay to them, the whole point of the EU project was to make us all "Europeans" and to prevent constant disastrous fighting between states and people of the continent. Sometime in the last 10 years many people and the media in the "core" countries got all smug and uppity towards those lazy "peripherals" and so on forgetting exactly why the project was started, overnight we stopped being "Europeans" and became "und…

It's a similar issue that we see in the US. There are a number of people (and the entire Constitution) that pushes for state level decisions unless it's absolutely necessary at the Federal level. This approach creates a more unified country because people are able to make their own decisions and live with them. States are able to compete economically. People are able to move within the country to states with policies…

> For every New Yorker I ask "Would you like Texas to govern New York?" I get another who is determined that New York should be able to dictate policy in Texas.

Is that really the same thing? For certain economies, the impacts of state-level decisions have federal ramifications. California can remain relatively autonomous when making decisions about how best to regulate an information economy, but I do think that Calfornians and New Yorkers have an interest in how resource-extraction economies, say in the South or in Appalachia, do business.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#100

Post by derriz » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 9:16 PM UTC

agounaris wrote: post #42

paskster wrote: post #23

I am astouned by all the comments, who say that "Greeks were getting a shitty deal" or that the bailout terms were somewhat "unfair". Facts are: Greece had a spending deficit for several decades now. This spending deficit accumulated to such a big dept, that no investors were willing to lend greece any more money. 18 european countries transferred billions of euros in the last couple of years to greece, to help the c…

You don't speak for the people of Europe. The Eurozone deals will never help Greece recover...I just assume you didn't read the proposals. Anyway it's amazing that still some German naively believes that the problem is the "spending" of money.

The Eurozone loans helped my country (another EU country which went bust in the GFC) recover. They allowed a "soft landing" in correcting government deficits. Of course it entailed new unpopular taxes and cutting government spending but most people are grateful that the country did not have to experience economic Armageddon - unfortunately it looks like Greece is about to experience this.