Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

medium.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

221–230 of 350 posts

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#221

Post by mcv »

sgnelson wrote: post #21

This makes me lose respect for Piketty. There's a very clear difference between a country that comes out of two world wars, with everything all but destroyed, including millions dead. I'm sorry, no matter how bad 2008 was, it was no World War. His inability to grasp this just boggles the mind. There's a very big difference between war caused debt and economic caused debt (note that I'm basically making these two "deb…

Are you saying that initiating (and losing) two world wars is less bad than financial mismanagement and corruption?

Keep in mind that Nazi Germany did a lot of damage in Greece, and still hasn't repaid that debt either. Insisting that Greece pays back all their debts when Germany is so good at avoiding to pay their own, is outright hypocritical.

Sending an economy into destruction like this is a terrible idea, and goes against everything the EU should stand for. It's disgusting to see Germany at the helm of such a ride to hell.

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#222

Post by Atropos »

oh_sigh wrote: post #196
HSO wrote: post #59

At the risk of being a moralizing bore, may I remind everybody that "Germany", "Greece" etc. are not people, and that people are not countries? I am surprised by the national coloring, however faint, of some comments here and there https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9834721 . "I am a German" or "Greek here" should have no relevance to the ideas put forth. "Your money" and "your banks" are not really "my money" and…

I think this is implicit in Pikettys argument. e.g. from the article: > But despite this, the younger generation of Greeks carries no more responsibility for the mistakes of its elders than the younger generation of Germans did in the 1950s and 1960s.

Oh but the current generation of Germans has a moral responsibility to help the current generation of Greeks because Germany got debt forgiveness 60 years ago ???

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#223

Post by Chinjut »

Atropos wrote: post #222
oh_sigh wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is implicit in Pikettys argument. e.g. from the article: > But despite this, the younger generation of Greeks carries no more responsibility for the mistakes of its elders than the younger generation of Germans did in the 1950s and 1960s.

Oh but the current generation of Germans has a moral responsibility to help the current generation of Greeks because Germany got debt forgiveness 60 years ago ???

The idea isn't that Germans have incurred a special moral responsibility (which they otherwise would not have) because Germany received debt forgiveness 60 years ago. Rather, the idea is that the debt forgiveness Germany received 60 years ago ended up working out quite well, most of us would agree. Thus, we would do well to learn from this history, instead of dogmatically keeping debt forgiveness off the table.

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#224

Post by mcv »

aikah wrote: post #48
sgnelson wrote: post #21

This makes me lose respect for Piketty. There's a very clear difference between a country that comes out of two world wars, with everything all but destroyed, including millions dead. I'm sorry, no matter how bad 2008 was, it was no World War. His inability to grasp this just boggles the mind. There's a very big difference between war caused debt and economic caused debt (note that I'm basically making these two "deb…

who started World War II ? > There's a very big difference between war caused debt and economic caused debt not if you started the very war that put you in debt.

Maybe Greece should declare war on Germany to get rid of their debt?

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#225

Post by Svip »

Chinjut wrote: post #223
Atropos wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh but the current generation of Germans has a moral responsibility to help the current generation of Greeks because Germany got debt forgiveness 60 years ago ???

The idea isn't that Germans have incurred a special moral responsibility (which they otherwise would not have) because Germany received debt forgiveness 60 years ago. Rather, the idea is that the debt forgiveness Germany received 60 years ago ended up working out quite well, most of us would agree. Thus, we would do well to learn from this history, instead of dogmatically keeping debt forgiveness off the table.

Perhaps. But Germany back then, before the war and now, has/had a large industry and infrastructure to work with (albeit a large part of it destroyed in the war). Greece doesn't have that. I don't disagree we should consider pumping up the Greek economy, but I do not believe the results will be like the German one.

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#226

Post by dmichulke »

Sorry, first the outburst, then the argument:

Such a load of bullshit!

The reason: What are you talking about? Generous? Currently, Germany is profiting from Greece as it extends loans at comparatively high interest rates.

The interviewer suggests with his question that it's about generosity? (come on!) Piketty responds that Germany is profiting.

Using the math I learned, adding up say 5 years of 5% doesn't even come close to the 50%-80% haircut that's gonna be needed. So how is there profiting?

Even worse: In the end, the creditors of sovereigns are rarely other sovereigns but banks and funds. The former will be probably bailed out by the taxpayer, the latter is usually pensions of taxpayers. Of course, the sovereigns themselves are funded by the taxpayer, too.

So no matter the result, it's not about generosity, there is no profiting (except for the few) and someone's got to pay (debts don't disappear) and he (the taxpayer) is not even mentioned.

I sincerely get angry when I read such "elitist" opinions that completely contort and ignore facts.

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#227

Post by Ygg2 »

muro wrote: post #165
TheCondor wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

West Germany did repay some of the defaulted WWI debt to help rebuild their reputation after they lost WWII. Also, there is another gigantic difference here, Germany lost a bloody war and we told them how it was going to be, we restructured their economy, wholesale, and they were in no position to disagree. About half the debt was forgiven because they did what we made them do. If Greece wants to put their sovereignt…

According to e.g.: http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/legacy-of-versai... Germany did repay the WWI reparation debt.

In 2010! That's almost a century from 1918. If Germany had to repay reparations from 1945, it would probably be repaying WWI debt to this day.

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#228

Post by danieltillett »

Svip wrote: post #225
Chinjut wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea isn't that Germans have incurred a special moral responsibility (which they otherwise would not have) because Germany received debt forgiveness 60 years ago. Rather, the idea is that the debt forgiveness Germany received 60 years ago ended up working out quite well, most of us would agree. Thus, we would do well to learn from this history, instead of dogmatically keeping debt forgiveness off the table.

Perhaps. But Germany back then, before the war and now, has/had a large industry and infrastructure to work with (albeit a large part of it destroyed in the war). Greece doesn't have that. I don't disagree we should consider pumping up the Greek economy, but I do not believe the results will be like the German one.

Every debt has a lender and a borrower and the borrower does not force the lender to lend.

At this point it is pretty clear that Greece can never pay off the debt which is just another way of saying that they should never have been lent the money in the first place. Write off the debt and vow to never lend the Greek state any money ever again. Both sides are at fault here.

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#229

Post by phillmv »

Svip wrote: post #225
Chinjut wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea isn't that Germans have incurred a special moral responsibility (which they otherwise would not have) because Germany received debt forgiveness 60 years ago. Rather, the idea is that the debt forgiveness Germany received 60 years ago ended up working out quite well, most of us would agree. Thus, we would do well to learn from this history, instead of dogmatically keeping debt forgiveness off the table.

Perhaps. But Germany back then, before the war and now, has/had a large industry and infrastructure to work with (albeit a large part of it destroyed in the war). Greece doesn't have that. I don't disagree we should consider pumping up the Greek economy, but I do not believe the results will be like the German one.

No one's saying Greece will become Germany.

Just that it will be doing better than if don't forgive its debt.

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#230

Post by dang »

cb18 wrote: post #195
return0 wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are not wrong, nationalism is making a big comeback in aging europe.

The subject of nationalism in Europe had already been brought up, and I responded in kind. If you don't want to talk about it that's fine, don't. I understand, it is a potentially uncomfortable subject. But don't try to shy away from the facts and bury your head in the sand with downvotes. As I said the topic was already brought up, this is not off topic or violating HN guidelines, to downvote simply because it makes…

Sex gangs and jihadists are utterly off topic. Please stop.
Post reply on HN