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Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

nytimes.com

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Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#331

Post by Lazare »

PythonicAlpha wrote: post #57

After 5 years of "rescuing" that did lead the country into ruins, no wonder! It is a widespread knowledge (at least the US has it), that forceful saving in a crisis, will deepen the crisis. As a German, I know that Germany got a dept-cut after the second World war, that the German nation could rise from misery. We should have allowed the Greek the same luxury. Instead, the governments cared only for the banks.

That...couldn't be more wrong.

Back in 2012 it was determined that Greek debt was unsustainable, and a large haircut was needed. But because the EU governments were unable/unwilling to accept any haircut on their holdings of Greek debt, that write down was borne entirely by private sector lenders.

> Instead, the governments cared only for the banks.

The banks lost 75%+ of their loans. The governments lost 0%. There's no way you can realistically spin that as a bail out of the banks.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#333

Post by brightball »

minot wrote: post #214
brightball wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This approach creates a more unified country because people are able to make their own decisions and live with them. >>I don't know why you would assume that: There's a whole host of tensions that come with decisions made at the state level. Reciprocity is a huge one that comes up semi-frequently (for example with firearm laws). There are and those get to be negotiated and worked out. The tensions arise, such as wi…

Sorry but the Republic does not enshrine states' rights nearly as much as you say. One policy I have problem with is the open alcohol container policy that is nominally at the state level but is actually at the federal level enforced by the federal highway funding. There are a lot of fundamental issues that we need to address at a federal level. I don't think it is decided that a strong central government causes a br…

It is the 10th amendment, part of the Bill of Rights.

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

I'm aware of the Supreme Court interpretation of it but there are also a number of people who contest that particular interpretation, as people do on multiple Supreme Court rulings.

Totally agree with you on the highway funding thing. That's basically the tax equivalent of taking your wallet and then telling you what you have to do to get it back. It was one of the earliest recent examples of a Federal power grab and if I'm not mistake that was actually Reagan.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#334

Post by roblfrieburg »

tptacek wrote: post #164
makeitsuckless wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does the term "sovereign nation" mean anything to you? Do you feel an obligation to pay for the debts of Greece? No? Then why would a German, or me as a Dutchman feel such an obligation?

No, but then my country is not part of a decades-long effort to unify the continent it resides on under a single financial and regulatory regime; we finished doing that roughly 150 years ago. As a result, we don't have to "bail out" Mississippi so much as continually pay for its mismanagement. And so, again, isn't "paying for mismanagement" part of what you sign up for when you try to unify Europe?

> when you try to unify Europe?

Very few current EU countries signed up for a "unification of Europe", it started as a trading bloc and escalated from there.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#335

Post by MarkMc »

littletimmy wrote: post #314

What's most interesting to me in this entire crisis is the moral discourse surrounding debt. More often than not, you'll hear stuff like: "Of course Greece must pay its debt", "You mean to say you can just take money and not pay?", "Why should taxpayers bail Greece out?"... All the while, there is absolute ZERO condemnation for banking entities making risky loans. There is not even a tacit nod towards acknowledging t…

No, there was a huge amount of anger and condemnation directed towards banks who received a bailout. The difference is that a collapse of so many large banks would have wrecked the German economy. That is why they received a bailout - not because of any 'moral superiority'

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#336

Post by [deleted] »

Lazare wrote: post #330
littletimmy wrote: post #314

What's most interesting to me in this entire crisis is the moral discourse surrounding debt. More often than not, you'll hear stuff like: "Of course Greece must pay its debt", "You mean to say you can just take money and not pay?", "Why should taxpayers bail Greece out?"... All the while, there is absolute ZERO condemnation for banking entities making risky loans. There is not even a tacit nod towards acknowledging t…

> All the while, there is absolute ZERO condemnation for banking entities making risky loans. There is not even a tacit nod towards acknowledging that if banks make loans that fail, it is their loss to eat. Not sure you really understand the situation. Everything which you said "isn't happening" already happened. There was already a massive haircut on privately held Greek debt (but not the publicly held greek debt),…

[deleted]

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#337

Post by Natsu »

sooheon wrote: post #323
Natsu wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess that depends on whether you see making a promise you have no reason to believe you can keep is better or worse than being dumb enough to believe it.

Don't discount the third option, that creditors are neither dumb or gullible, but predatory.

Usually predatory lenders have more recourse over you: they'll take your car from the car title loan, etc. What do they gain from this situation, exactly? It seems to me like everybody loses here... and I'm not entirely certain they won't find some bailout and have it happen again.

Right now, I feel sorry for the people in Greece, it seems like they work long hours for nothing and their government is completely underwater.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#338

Post by [deleted] »

dageshi wrote: post #38
skwirl wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't the Greek government promise that voting "no" was the only way to STAY on the Euro? From what I have seen both sides were promising the same outcome, so the vote was all about who you believed more.

My interpretation is that this referendum effectively forces the ball into the EU's court. The Greek public rejected the last deal, if they don't get a better one then it will be the EU pushing the Greeks out of the euro and not the choice of the Greek government to leave.

[deleted]

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#339

Post by mb_72 »

gutnor wrote: post #179
mb_72 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Half-Australian and half-Estonian here; I can only agree with your sentiment. It seems to me that decades of corruption, tax avoidance and financial mismanagement is responsible for the position that Greece is in today, and I don't see why it is necessary for other countries to reward such behaviour with continued support and understanding. You don't like the terms of financial support offered by the EU? Well, maybe…

How much research did you do into all the fiscal decisions of the country you live in ? Are you even qualified enough to interpret the result at all ?It seems to me you are asking from the average Joe Greek more than professional actually did. Also "Greece" is not a single entity. Making Greece pay does not mean making the people that created the debt pay - it means taking the available money and you should know that…

I don't believe for one moment that corruption and tax avoidance has been eliminated from Greece. I would wager there are a number complaining about the 'harsh' EU treatment who have also not done the right thing by their government and fellow Greeks.

Besides - why should other countries be equally or more responsible for Greece's problems than the people of Greece themselves? It just doesn't make any sense.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#340

Post by joshuapants »

FlannelPancake wrote: post #212
brightball wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This approach creates a more unified country because people are able to make their own decisions and live with them. >>I don't know why you would assume that: There's a whole host of tensions that come with decisions made at the state level. Reciprocity is a huge one that comes up semi-frequently (for example with firearm laws). There are and those get to be negotiated and worked out. The tensions arise, such as wi…

> The tensions arise, such as with firearms laws, because states don't see eye to eye on those issues so they get to dictate exactly how things work in their own states That causes some AWFUL problems for people traveling between states, which is incredibly common nowadays because of air travel. Google for the myriad of really terrible stories involving people accidentally traveling to New Jersey with a firearm. In a…

> Google for the myriad of really terrible stories involving people accidentally traveling to New Jersey with a firearm. In at least a few cases they were forced to travel to New Jersey because of an airline mistake (unexpected layovers, misplaced luggage, etc.). Reciprocity is a much bigger issue than you're making it out to be.

That's not about reciprocity so much as it is about NJSP thumbing their noses at FOPA (federal law since 1986) I think

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