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Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

nytimes.com

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Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#311

Post by shoo »

tedunangst wrote: post #141
wyager wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly can't understand your argument; you're saying that for some reason, places with information economies should have legal power over places with resource economies?

You get to regulate what's in your state. If Google is in your state, you get to tell google how things are. But if a coal mine is in a different state, you don't get to tell them how things are.

This would be a tolerable state of affairs if we lived in a world where decisions only had spatially and temporally local consequences. But, alas, we don't.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#312

Post by ori_b »

atmosx wrote: post #43
paskster wrote: post #23

I am astouned by all the comments, who say that "Greeks were getting a shitty deal" or that the bailout terms were somewhat "unfair". Facts are: Greece had a spending deficit for several decades now. This spending deficit accumulated to such a big dept, that no investors were willing to lend greece any more money. 18 european countries transferred billions of euros in the last couple of years to greece, to help the c…

The fact that you are convinced that Germany acted in Greece's best interest is what sets us apart. Your money went mainly to your Banks, via Greece. Concluding, I'd rather go back to the Drachma and blow the Euro project than die starving becuase it suits your country's political class. ps. Even if Greece doesn't put the last nail on the coffin of the EU-project, I'm 100% sure that the UK will.

> The fact that you are convinced that Germany acted in Greece's best interest is what sets us apart.

Greece not failing to pay creditors is good for both Greece and Greek's creditors. I'm not sure why you feel that the two are mutually exclusive.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#313

Post by twobits »

SneakerXZ wrote: post #258
elorant wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your country doesn't have strategic position From all the arguments I’ve read this is the most hilarious. Dude, have you opened a map lately? Half of Middle East is in flames including parts of northern Africa. And we have no strategic position? Greece is what stands between Europe and legions of refugees from Syria, Afghanistan and Iraq. Not to mention the fuckers from ISIS who want to infiltrate Europe. Thank God w…

I though strategic position for business. Of course, you have strategic position for war but it will not bring you any money if NATO moves forces to your country to protect Europe against Middle East and North Africa. It also funny you mention you are what stand between immigrants and Europe but I guess you forgot to mention you don't protect your borders anymore because you cannot afford it anymore so thousands of i…

About immigration, you should read about the "Dublin 2" treaty, and be amazed at the EU's hypocrisy.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#314

Post by littletimmy »

What's most interesting to me in this entire crisis is the moral discourse surrounding debt. More often than not, you'll hear stuff like: "Of course Greece must pay its debt", "You mean to say you can just take money and not pay?", "Why should taxpayers bail Greece out?"...

All the while, there is absolute ZERO condemnation for banking entities making risky loans. There is not even a tacit nod towards acknowledging that if banks make loans that fail, it is their loss to eat. Not a whisper about how taxpayers have been surreptitiously bailing out banks, and not Greece.

Somehow, a creditor is deemed morally superior to the debtor. What repulsive rhetoric!

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#315

Post by jbapple »

fredkbloggs wrote: post #113
davidf18 wrote: post #39

The real problem is that banks lent to Greece without doing their due diligence evaluating risk. Instead the bankers collected their fat fees for making the loans. Usually when banks make bad loans they have to write them off but when in 2010 the Troika (Euro Community, IMF, ECB) took over the Greek debt they paid 100% instead of insisting on the banks taking a "haircut" of say 50%. In truth some of the smaller membe…

This is so common that it already has a name: extend and pretend. That's exactly what was done with Greece; the interest rate was lowered to a scandalously generous level, maturities extended to practically forever (Merkel and co. will be long dead by the time most of it is due), and everyone got to pretend things were fine. As usual with this approach, things weren't fine, and when it was time to extend and pretend…

If Japan owes debt in its own currency, can it just print money to pay off the debt? If Greece can't devalue its currency this way, is its situation materially different by even just this fact alone?

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#316

Post by themartorana »

littletimmy wrote: post #314

What's most interesting to me in this entire crisis is the moral discourse surrounding debt. More often than not, you'll hear stuff like: "Of course Greece must pay its debt", "You mean to say you can just take money and not pay?", "Why should taxpayers bail Greece out?"... All the while, there is absolute ZERO condemnation for banking entities making risky loans. There is not even a tacit nod towards acknowledging t…

Well, not exactly. The people are rather loud about it (at least here in the U.S. where we lock up petty drug offenders for life, but there's nary a single banker in jail for the 2008 worldwide economic collapse), but it doesn't matter if we make noise about it. As long as no one in government does, and the media mostly ignores it, the result is the same.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#317

Post by cperciva »

jbapple wrote: post #315
fredkbloggs wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is so common that it already has a name: extend and pretend. That's exactly what was done with Greece; the interest rate was lowered to a scandalously generous level, maturities extended to practically forever (Merkel and co. will be long dead by the time most of it is due), and everyone got to pretend things were fine. As usual with this approach, things weren't fine, and when it was time to extend and pretend…

If Japan owes debt in its own currency, can it just print money to pay off the debt? If Greece can't devalue its currency this way, is its situation materially different by even just this fact alone?

If Japan owes debt in its own currency, can it just print money to pay off the debt?

That's effectively what Japan is doing, by having its central bank loan money at 0.1%.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#318

Post by cperciva »

tptacek wrote: post #164
makeitsuckless wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does the term "sovereign nation" mean anything to you? Do you feel an obligation to pay for the debts of Greece? No? Then why would a German, or me as a Dutchman feel such an obligation?

No, but then my country is not part of a decades-long effort to unify the continent it resides on under a single financial and regulatory regime; we finished doing that roughly 150 years ago. As a result, we don't have to "bail out" Mississippi so much as continually pay for its mismanagement. And so, again, isn't "paying for mismanagement" part of what you sign up for when you try to unify Europe?

No, but then my country is not part of a decades-long effort to unify the continent it resides on under a single financial and regulatory regime; we finished doing that roughly 150 years ago.

No, you tried to do that 203 years ago, but we burnt down your White House.

I'll give you that you unified somewhat less than half of the continent though. ;-)

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#319

Post by abrezas »

tptacek wrote: post #236
calibraxis wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Debt is fundamentally about morality. Otherwise everyone would accord Greece the agency to shrug and ignore it, like politicians break promises to consituents, or big companies ignore their debts to smaller ones. Instead, children worldwide are condemned to misery ("austerity"), because of moral statements like "you have to pay your debts". Though they did nothing to deserve it. As for Greece's finances, that's exact…

You're dodging my point. Greece isn't simply arguing that, morality being relative and all, they've decided not to pay back their debts. They are demanding more money from their creditors. It seems like they have to: they're running a primary deficit; they're losing money even before you take debt service into account. Whatever the moral dimension of paying back their debt is has nothing to do with the question of wh…

greece had primary surplus last year http://www.globalizedblog.com/2015/02/greeces-primary-surplu...

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#320

Post by Natsu »

littletimmy wrote: post #314

What's most interesting to me in this entire crisis is the moral discourse surrounding debt. More often than not, you'll hear stuff like: "Of course Greece must pay its debt", "You mean to say you can just take money and not pay?", "Why should taxpayers bail Greece out?"... All the while, there is absolute ZERO condemnation for banking entities making risky loans. There is not even a tacit nod towards acknowledging t…

I guess that depends on whether you see making a promise you have no reason to believe you can keep is better or worse than being dumb enough to believe it.
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