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Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

nytimes.com

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Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#251

Post by Nelson69 »

JulianMorrison wrote: post #175
paskster wrote: post #23

I am astouned by all the comments, who say that "Greeks were getting a shitty deal" or that the bailout terms were somewhat "unfair". Facts are: Greece had a spending deficit for several decades now. This spending deficit accumulated to such a big dept, that no investors were willing to lend greece any more money. 18 european countries transferred billions of euros in the last couple of years to greece, to help the c…

I don't think anybody sees Greece as innocent of creating the debt. But. 1. The ones bailed out have been private bankers, by public funds. 2. Austerity, demanded as the cure for deficit spending, has dragged Greece into a recession and achieved exactly none of its aims - spending is still high as a proportion of GDP, because GDP has crashed. 3. The creditors have stopped demanding austerity as a policy aimed at crea…

Point 4 is sane? Greece doesn't seem interested in repaying their debt now, you think they're going to care in 10 years after just writing some of it off? Why won't they expect the rest to go away too? I think a lot of the "no" voters simply don't see any services from their government to justify their taxes, they already avoid taxes at endemic levels, and fundamentally don't actually feel any ownership for the debt.

Moreover, can their economy recover without outside help? What does that actually look like? That's the bigger issue, any way you slice it, they got really used to making promises and living larger than they are. The wish or risk or whatever is that the ECB will want to recover some of that debt and in exchange for that wish, write off a large chunk of it and then continue to give them handouts. What does a viable Greek economy actually look like?

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#252

Post by alexandros »

tptacek wrote: post #245
alexandros wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, as long as you're retracting your original statement about 8-10% deficit, we're good. I'm not going to argue 1.5% down or up. Nobody's talking about paying the loans and keeping the country going without help. What people are saying is that Greece can support itself, minus the loans.

I think you've responded to the wrong comment. I never claimed an 8-10% deficit. Also: you haven't explained how Greece can support itself, minus the loans, while still running a deficit even before interest payments on those loans.

You said there was no surplus, which I take to mean expenses == receipts. In that case, it's obvious how it will support itself (if you ignore the loans). Do you have sources for a deficit?

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#253

Post by woodpanel »

aikah wrote: post #231
makeitsuckless wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does the term "sovereign nation" mean anything to you? Do you feel an obligation to pay for the debts of Greece? No? Then why would a German, or me as a Dutchman feel such an obligation?

> Does the term "sovereign nation" mean anything to you? Does the term European Union mean anything to you? Does the term common currency mean anything to you? If Greece fails, Do you really think Germans won't suffer any consequences?

Yes, the Germans won't suffer any consequences. The markets did not crashed yet, and they most probably won't because no sane private entity in the world was lending Greece any money. Except EU-minus-1's tax payers representatives. But then again, I was talking about sane entities...

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#254

Post by monk_e_boy »

gutnor wrote: post #179
mb_72 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Half-Australian and half-Estonian here; I can only agree with your sentiment. It seems to me that decades of corruption, tax avoidance and financial mismanagement is responsible for the position that Greece is in today, and I don't see why it is necessary for other countries to reward such behaviour with continued support and understanding. You don't like the terms of financial support offered by the EU? Well, maybe…

How much research did you do into all the fiscal decisions of the country you live in ? Are you even qualified enough to interpret the result at all ?It seems to me you are asking from the average Joe Greek more than professional actually did. Also "Greece" is not a single entity. Making Greece pay does not mean making the people that created the debt pay - it means taking the available money and you should know that…

Agreed, the people who mismanaged and/or stole the money in previous years are GONE. Why punish the average Joe in Greece? What will it achieve?

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#255

Post by tptacek »

alexandros wrote: post #252
tptacek wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you've responded to the wrong comment. I never claimed an 8-10% deficit. Also: you haven't explained how Greece can support itself, minus the loans, while still running a deficit even before interest payments on those loans.

You said there was no surplus, which I take to mean expenses == receipts. In that case, it's obvious how it will support itself (if you ignore the loans). Do you have sources for a deficit?

That was 2014. In 2015 they're apparently tracking towards an actual primary deficit.

The point of discussing the 2014 and 2013 numbers is to rebut the notion that Greece had somehow found stable footing, and were being victimized by punitive negotiations from the troika. I didn't introduce that idea to the thread, but I did object to it.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#256

Post by rimantas »

atmosx wrote: post #43
paskster wrote: post #23

I am astouned by all the comments, who say that "Greeks were getting a shitty deal" or that the bailout terms were somewhat "unfair". Facts are: Greece had a spending deficit for several decades now. This spending deficit accumulated to such a big dept, that no investors were willing to lend greece any more money. 18 european countries transferred billions of euros in the last couple of years to greece, to help the c…

The fact that you are convinced that Germany acted in Greece's best interest is what sets us apart. Your money went mainly to your Banks, via Greece. Concluding, I'd rather go back to the Drachma and blow the Euro project than die starving becuase it suits your country's political class. ps. Even if Greece doesn't put the last nail on the coffin of the EU-project, I'm 100% sure that the UK will.

And why money went to the banks? To pay the interests to the banks. Where did the initial loans go? Who knows. The fact is, Government of Greece got the initial loans, wasted them, got some more, and then had to get more loans just to be able to pay interests on the initial ones.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#257

Post by scrollaway »

tptacek wrote: post #243
liebknecht wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that Varoufakis was referring the Troika (or rather, their actions: he used the word "terrorism", not the more loaded term "terrorist") when he said that, not to the Germans as a people (or even to German banks, or their politicians). At no point in the El Mundo article did he call the Germans "terrorists", and -- worse than hyperbolic -- it's irresponsible for you to suggest that he did.

The troika includes Germany. My impression of Germany's role in the troika ("Germany is the backbone of obduracy in the troika") could be wrong. Is it? Here's what Varoufakis said: What they’re doing with Greece has a name — terrorism [...] Why did they force us to close the banks? To instill fear in people. And spreading fear is called terrorism. My point, of course, is that these were both hyperbolic arguments.

Varoufakis did not speak English when he said that. He said:

"αυτό που κάνουν (οι πιστωτές) στην Ελλάδα έχει ένα όνομα: τρομοκρατία"

In greek, τρομοκρατία is a much less loaded term than "terrorism", even though it translates the same way. It's more "terror campaign".

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#258

Post by SneakerXZ »

elorant wrote: post #244
SneakerXZ wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think Greece will do better without EU you are wrong. You will end up as Macedonia, Albania, Bulgaria or Romania (last two will do probably better) so I don't think you will like it. Also your credibility will be destroyed because if you decided not you pay your depts nobody will borrow you any money in next years. You have problems with collecting taxes, you overspend money on public sector and social system…

Your country doesn't have strategic position From all the arguments I’ve read this is the most hilarious. Dude, have you opened a map lately? Half of Middle East is in flames including parts of northern Africa. And we have no strategic position? Greece is what stands between Europe and legions of refugees from Syria, Afghanistan and Iraq. Not to mention the fuckers from ISIS who want to infiltrate Europe. Thank God w…

I though strategic position for business. Of course, you have strategic position for war but it will not bring you any money if NATO moves forces to your country to protect Europe against Middle East and North Africa.

It also funny you mention you are what stand between immigrants and Europe but I guess you forgot to mention you don't protect your borders anymore because you cannot afford it anymore so thousands of immigrants through your country is flooding Europe.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#260

Post by woodpanel »

calibraxis wrote: post #170
makeitsuckless wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does the term "sovereign nation" mean anything to you? Do you feel an obligation to pay for the debts of Greece? No? Then why would a German, or me as a Dutchman feel such an obligation?

I’m from the US and say hell yes, we should pay Greek debt. We supported their authoritarian governments post-WWII. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_military_junta_of_1967%E... ) As for Germany... as Piketty told Die Zeit, Germany never repaid its debts and has "no standing to lecture other nations." They're hilariously wagging their fingers at far more responsible people. ( https://medium.com/@gavinschalliol/th…

If reason fails, wing out the Nazi-Bat.

I think the history is full of misinterpreted debts, especially Germany's (Versailles > WWII...)

But I think one basic understanding of debt should not be discredited:

There's a difference between ...

- A debt that was agreed upon by both parties in a free market (Greece defaulted on that in 2012)

- A debt that was agreed upon by both parties's representatives as an act of embezzlement - i.e. favoring Europe's banks/Greek oligarchy (Greece is about to default on that right now)

- A debt that was agreed upon by the winners of a war over a defeated country

You can say what you want about a "level playing field" not being in place when battered Greece gets to negotiate with its Creditors, but even trying to compare that with a war-looser situation is disingenuous.

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