After simple dental surgery, William lost his ability to form new memories • Hacker News Board

Re: After simple dental surgery, William lost his ability to form new memories

#101

Post by mb_72 » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 10:01 PM UTC

JesperRavn wrote: post #99

tptacek wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that makes intuitive sense. I'm still left with the question: is the experience of surgery really that bad?

I've always been afraid of intravenous sedation (="twilight anesthetic" in other English speaking countries) for the same reason. The only time I experienced it was for an endoscopy. Because I was a heavy drinker at the time (probably the reason for the symptoms that lead the the endoscopy, ironically) the intravenous sedation had little effect, so I was awake through the whole thing. I didn't find it traumatic, mere…

I've had an endoscopy before, to push down some food stuck at the top of my stomach, with no sedation or numbing. Being held down by a couple of nurses and the doctor whilst the procedure was done three times - the first two times I pulled the endoscope out after having panic attacks - was the worst medical-related experienced I've ever had, and it still gives me nightmares. Turns out the doctor was known for being a sadistic bastard who enjoyed seeing his patients squirm; I wish I was making this up.

OTOH I regularly have a colonoscopy under heavy sedation, and never remember a thing.I know there are risks with any kind of sedation or anaesthetic, however anecdotally they've saved me a lot of trauma.

Re: After simple dental surgery, William lost his ability to form new memories

#102

Post by cpncrunch » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 10:15 PM UTC

imaginenore wrote: post #72

djfm wrote: post #59

If no link can be found between the dental surgery and the memory-forming loss, could it be that there is actually no link? Have any other hypotheses been researched besides the surgery?

Exactly. It can be just a coincidence. A blood clot, undetected cancer, genetic disorder, or a million other things.

Or more likely psychogenic, given the recent death of his father.

Re: After simple dental surgery, William lost his ability to form new memories

#103

Post by themgt » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 10:21 PM UTC

Sharlin wrote: post #84

themgt wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I've had that also. Very strange, like how does one recognize that one has "woken up" from being already awake? It's like, oh, the tape recorder turned back on. Maybe we're just the tape recorder?

Yes, it's a popular view nowadays among psychologists and cognitive scientists that the conscious self is just a sort of a senior manager that receives reports and thinks he's in charge while in fact his subordinates work just fine even when he's temporarily not available at all.

Well, it's an interesting point, because apparently if the tape recorder never turns back on, you're just kinda stuck in time as the person you were. So it suggests at the least that the tape recorder aspect of consciousness, perhaps in the way it feeds back one's perception of oneself to oneself, is crucial in the sort of consciousness we humans see as critical to identity.

Clearly though, this guy is still "conscious" - it seems like a situation we don't have quite the correct terminology to describe.

Re: After simple dental surgery, William lost his ability to form new memories

#104

Post by __z » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 10:22 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #50

rayalez wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> while not appearing to assign much risk to how you get there. I'm not sure what you mean by this, can you rephrase it? If you are saying that I'm not putting enough weight on the risks of avoiding the procedure - let me be clear, I'm talking about cases where anesthesia is optional, and is a matter of pain vs comfort. I know that avoiding root canal puts me at risk of dying from infection, so of course I wouldn't a…

Having an anasthetic carries some risk. How much? How many people per million suffer the adverse outcome you fear? Now compare that to the risk of day to day life. How much has the risk increased? There's a bunch of stuff you do that you don't need to do that carries more risk than anaesthetic. It's fine for you to chose your medical care. You might want to investigate an "advance health care directive". Having one s…

>There's a bunch of stuff you do that you don't need to do that carries more risk than anaesthetic.

I don't have any evidence for this but I suspect that the majority of brain injuries in otherwise healthy people come from trauma due to accidents. If my suspicion is true then wearing a helmet all the time might be the most effective way to avoid brain injury.

Re: After simple dental surgery, William lost his ability to form new memories

#105

Post by themgt » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 10:25 PM UTC

rusabd wrote: post #88

metasean wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After my first knee surgery, I regained consciousness midway through speaking a sentence to my mother. I was literally listening to words coming out of my mouth and had no idea where I was, who I was, or what I was talking about. My very next sentence was a panicked question to my mother trying to figure out those things. Turned out I had 'been awake and having cohesive conversation' with her for over an hour. I stil…

I read this book "The Master and His Emissary: The Divided Brain and the Making of the Western World" and based on that I would say your left hemisphere were active when right one was suppressed for some time. I can't recommend this book highly enough - it's very comprehensive and it give you an opportunity to look at the world from a different perspective

I also highly recommend that book. I wonder whether I'd consider this a hemispheric situation.

It seems to me like the internal, autobiographic self being disabled, and then upon awakening this self immediately says "wait, discontinuity in the recording ... where was I?" and this feeds back into the rest of the brain creating the confusion.

He wasn't confused the moment before, because his autobiographical self wasn't recording.

Re: After simple dental surgery, William lost his ability to form new memories

#106

Post by __z » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 10:25 PM UTC

curiousjorge wrote: post #76

so is root canal dangerous??

All medical interventions have the risk of adverse outcomes. Treating a patient is a risk-benefits analysis.

Re: After simple dental surgery, William lost his ability to form new memories

#107

Post by __z » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 10:35 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #69

jandrewrogers wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The use of amnesiacs like midazolam in conjunction with unpleasant surgery has become common practice because it has been shown to significantly reduce the psychological trauma associated with surgical procedures and related changes in behavior as a result. You will still experience the trauma at the time whether you remember it or not, but the experience is not persistently encoded into your brain. This is important…

And that makes intuitive sense. I'm still left with the question: is the experience of surgery really that bad?

> is the experience of surgery really that bad?

It varies by person but - Yes, it certainly can be.

My grandma had to undergo hip surgery awake with only local anesthetic. She was too frail and had all these health conditions so she couldn't be put under or given much medication. At the same time they couldn't just leave her hip broken. It was an extremely traumatic event for her.

Of course others would think it wasn't such a big deal.

Re: After simple dental surgery, William lost his ability to form new memories

#108

Post by MichaelCrawford » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 10:46 PM UTC

Natsu wrote: post #66

kbutler wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two concerns: - You should definitely have imaging done to see if you can identify a cause. - If you have seizures, you should definitely NOT be driving a car, for your safety and the safety of everyone around you Please get this checked out immediately...

You're absolutely right, but there's one problem: it's hard to get in for an immediate checkup and there's a good chance he'll forget about scheduling one. Instead, he should tell a family member or close friend right away. Then they can help him make the proper medical appointments, etc.

When I got home from the hospital after the worst of my seizures, I found the instructions that were given to my mother. She was advised not to permit me to go outside unescorted.

She had put it with my stuff then never mentioned it.

Mom is actually quite an intelligent woman but sometimes she can be a little daft.

Re: After simple dental surgery, William lost his ability to form new memories

#109

Post by __z » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 10:51 PM UTC

VieElm wrote: post #61

vvpan wrote: post #58

A few comments in this thread mention "genera anaesthesia side effects" and long-term problems. I have never heard of this and a quick wikipedia/google search is not bringing up good source on the topic. Is this substantiated or another "vaccines cause autism" kind of thing?

There was recent news on the detrimental effects of general anesthesia has on the very young and old. Apparently it can be neurotoxic but healthy adults don't seem to have long lasting problems.

A family friend of mine went under general anesthesia and woke up senile. He was in his late-70s, early-80s at the time. Lives in a nursing home now. Once in a while can have some moments of somewhat clarity but they only last for a minute or two.

Re: After simple dental surgery, William lost his ability to form new memories

#110

Post by SoftwareMaven » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 10:52 PM UTC

spike021 wrote: post #35

joezydeco wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Earlier this year I had a medical procedure and was given "twilight" anesthesia. I was explicitly told "you need to have your spouse or a friend here because we're going to give you instructions afterward and you probably won't remember it". And, sure enough, my memory was pretty much wiped for the hour or so after the event. Later that evening I had a conversation with my wife that went like this: "Um, did you help…

I _believe_ I had the same anesthesia done when I went in for an endoscopy procedure roughly a year or so back. Supposedly the doctor had told me how often to take the prescription, I had sent iMessages/SMS' to people as well. Later that day I had nearly no recollection of any of it. It's a very odd feeling for sure. Nothing serious and I doubt it caused any damage, but it was the first time I'd ever just had a blank…

That blank period, where you know things happened but have absolutely no recall, is horrifying. I have a period like that, and it still bothers me a lot.