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Dune, 50 years on

theguardian.com

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Re: Dune, 50 years on

#81

Post by _jeans »

nl wrote: post #45
iwwr wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would disagree. The sequels, especially 5-6 open up the wider universe and explore a variety of human cultures and social interaction. It's a fantasy-scify with deep and complex characters and complex interactions. Normally you'd start to see a scifi universe break apart after a few books, but Dune's could stand, it's 'realistic' in a sense. If you mean the sequels, prequels, interquels made by Brian Herbert and Ke…

The sequels aren't that well written. The prequels shouldn't have been written.

I would never consider the prequels to be canon, as they were not written by Frank Herbert himself.

Re: Dune, 50 years on

#82

Post by Retric »

reagency wrote: post #80
Retric wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think LoTR has much deeper connections to the First World War than the second. WWI is outside of our frame of reference, but for example LoTR was very much a ground war.

Would lotr have a deeper meaning if I read a wwi history or novel first?

Possibly, though I am more thinking about how combat worked in WWI vs WWII. Cavalry for example was still useful in WWI at the start and become less useful over time. Trench warfare in WWI often devolved into hand to hand fighting where firearms where more useful and machinguns far more common and better used tactically making tanks a requirement vs simple massed charges. Running out of ammo was also a common issue in WWI though this still happened in WWII.

WWI saw a lot more walled fortifications where bunkers where the preferred WWII due in no small part to increase aircraft use.

LoTR used walled fortifications, some ranged combat but a lot of hand to hand combat, artillery where there but of minimal value, you can even think of the eye as eairly aircraft useage, where you can't really hide, but aircraft can't Effectivly attack. Etc.

Re: Dune, 50 years on

#83

Post by jqjester »

dogecoinbase wrote: post #14
camperman wrote: post #5

"If The Lord of the Rings is about the rise of fascism and the trauma of the second world war," Which it isn't, as Tolkien makes clear in the foreward.

An author fully understands their own work the way a programmer knows about every bug in code they've written. This is why we have QA and literary critics.

Or perhaps an author fully understands their own work the same way a programmer knows how users will use their programs.

Re: Dune, 50 years on

#84

Post by camperman »

revscat wrote: post #7
camperman wrote: post #5

"If The Lord of the Rings is about the rise of fascism and the trauma of the second world war," Which it isn't, as Tolkien makes clear in the foreward.

I'm not sure I agree with Tolkien on this front. Yes, I know: I'm disagreeing with an author's assessment of his own work. But authors are necessarily a part of their environment. It is -- literally -- inescapable. The good Professor was directly involved in the first World War, and the second was at his doorstep. His aversion to modernity could have led to him simply denying a a conscious connection between those re…

I'm not going to cut and paste (or type out) the whole forward but more than half of it talks about this claim in considerable detail. It's not new. Tolkien says:

- He dislikes allegory in all its forms

- The relationship between any author's experiences and his writing are amazingly complex.

- The story is meant to provide a good long tale that would move, delight and surprise readers. It is not meant to have a deeper meaning by intention.

- Parallels between WWII and LoTR simply don't work.

- The key parts of the story are by far the oldest.

- The old miller had a black beard and his name was not Sandyman (his final dig).

He was far more influenced by his classical background and philology than current affairs.

Re: Dune, 50 years on

#85

Post by JoshTriplett »

gommm wrote: post #71
tinco wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I would attempt a re-reading of Dune, would it be advisable to skip those two sequals? It's been over 10 years since I read Dune and among the few things I remember is that I found it a painfully slow read full of details I wasn't interested in and words I couldn't bother to learn. My English is a bit better now, and I like to think I've become a bit more patient ;) So perhaps I could attempt it again and see if I…

I think you can just skip the first two sequels... The emperor god of dune still reads fine without remembering those two sequels perfectly. Incidentally I agree, while the first two sequels are interesting they are a bit of a slow read and they don't feel as well written as the later books. Frank Herbert really starts to get into his stride with the Emperor God of Dune. The books by Brian Herbert and Kevin J Anderso…

> The books by Brian Herbert and Kevin J Anderson are better avoided like all works by Kevin J Anderson (who is IMO a very mediocre writer)

I quite enjoyed the Jedi Academy trilogy, both for its own sake and for its detail on several bits of the universe.

Re: Dune, 50 years on

#86

Post by JoshTriplett »

snowwrestler wrote: post #74
JoshTriplett wrote: post #15

I thoroughly enjoyed Dune. It had an interesting story, set in an even more interesting world. However, it's also the kind of book that should never have had a sequel; other books in the series not only don't measure up, but actively undermine what made the original interesting. It's possible that other good stories could have been written in that universe, but they weren't. I highly recommend reading only the origin…

The sequels don't undermine the original story, they expand on it. A lot of people think Dune is a straightforward hero story, with Paul Atreides the "good" hero, but actually (edit: I should say, according to Herbert and taking into account the later novels) it is the story of the terrible damage a "hero" can cause to a culture and society. "No more terrible disaster could befall your people than for them to fall in…

What an author intends and what readers take from it are two different things. Definitely an interesting quote, though; I like that.

Re: Dune, 50 years on

#87

Post by JoshTriplett »

brandonmenc wrote: post #58
JoshTriplett wrote: post #15

I thoroughly enjoyed Dune. It had an interesting story, set in an even more interesting world. However, it's also the kind of book that should never have had a sequel; other books in the series not only don't measure up, but actively undermine what made the original interesting. It's possible that other good stories could have been written in that universe, but they weren't. I highly recommend reading only the origin…

> it's also the kind of book that should never have had a sequel The first two books are meant to be read as one. I recommend, at minimum , Dune and Dune Messiah.

I found Dune Messiah to be a slog through piles of brooding and pontification; Children of Dune was at least an improvement over that.

Re: Dune, 50 years on

#88

Post by manigandham »

scarecrowbob wrote: post #69
manigandham wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get that analogy... wouldn't that be an author has basic writing mistakes and this is why we have book editors? How do bugs/mistakes change the intent and meaning of the actual work by the person creating it? When I create a software program, I don't expect people to come along and point out that I'm actually creating it for different reasons or a different purpose.

"How do bugs/mistakes change the intent and meaning of the actual work by the person creating it?" Often a bug comes into being because our ability to translate our intents into language is limited by our perceptions. In code, this works out that we think we told the machine to do one thing, but in practice our instructions have side effects or unforeseen meanings in corner cases. In language, this could be seen in t…

I see that as more the reader/user using the work and applying meaning to it by using it to relate to some other knowledge or experience in their life.

Every reader can get a different meaning because of something specific to them, but I don't see how that would change the author's intentions. He/she can absolutely state exactly why they wrote something and what the meaning is, without contest.

My point: meaning is subjective and we should leave it as such, ie: "I think this story is a nice fit for this scenario" instead of "the author meant this even though he clearly states he didnt."

Re: Dune, 50 years on

#89

Post by rdtsc »

kepano wrote: post #64
rdtsc wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I saw that movie, I thought it was very good. Just curious, what did you like about it that it changed your life. Did you mean the how it was shot (i.e. impressed by director's work), Jodorowsky as a person, his story how he worked on Dune with other people (the complexity, dedication, the obsession), or Dune itself? I found interesting how Dune influenced all these other blockbusters that came after, most importantl…

It's the only movie I've watched that made me rewatch it immediately after it was over. I rewatched it two more times in the next two days afterwards and I've watched it every few months since. The movie invariably invokes a feeling of pure creativity in me. It puts me in a fury, like some sort of creative berserker. I like watching it to conjure that feeling. At the core it's Jodo's intensity that I love. He approac…

Thank you for answering! I can see your viewpoint.

I can't decide if Jodorowsky is bit crazy or genius. Probably both.

Thinking back, yeah I did find he dedication fascinating.

I remembered him of course from his films -- Fando Y Lis, Santa Sangre, Holy Mountain. Most Americans have heard or seen a David Lynch movie, well Jodorowsky is more out there if you wish. Even if Jodo's Dune was made, I doubt it would have gained international success and become a "Star Wars". It would have been an awesome and fascinating movie but not for everyone's tastes.

Re: Dune, 50 years on

#90

Post by eli_gottlieb »

brandonmenc wrote: post #58
JoshTriplett wrote: post #15

I thoroughly enjoyed Dune. It had an interesting story, set in an even more interesting world. However, it's also the kind of book that should never have had a sequel; other books in the series not only don't measure up, but actively undermine what made the original interesting. It's possible that other good stories could have been written in that universe, but they weren't. I highly recommend reading only the origin…

> it's also the kind of book that should never have had a sequel The first two books are meant to be read as one. I recommend, at minimum , Dune and Dune Messiah.

Read Dune and Dune Messiah together, and then skip the rest and read God Emperor of Dune. That more-or-less provides what you need.
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