Show HN: Ironclad – an automated legal assistant • Hacker News Board

Re: Show HN: Ironclad – an automated legal assistant

#11

Post by yid » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 7:21 PM UTC

jwb119 wrote: post #10

Animats wrote: post #9

At last, the startup web site which gives no information. "The best way to jump right in is to go through signup". Wrong answer. Do you have a legal opinion that you are not engaged in the unauthorized practice of law? LegalZoom had a lot of trouble with that.[1] Even after some wins in court, they operate only in 41 US states, and have lawyers and paralegals on staff. Badly drafted contracts can cause big trouble la…

Hey John, thanks for your comments. Really appreciate you taking a look and I hear your points. Your question is probably rhetorical, but we're certainly not trying to give legal advice here (and we've been careful to build this in a way that it's clearly an admin tool and not a replacement for legal advice). As far as the "jump right in goes" - just trying to fit in to the spirit of a Show HN and have people play ar…

> we've been careful to build this in a way that it's clearly an admin tool and not a replacement for legal advice

While the parent comment was a bit harsh, literally the first point on your landing page is "A modern legal assistant", which really does sound like you're managing parts of the legal process that a lawyer normally would.

Re: Show HN: Ironclad – an automated legal assistant

#12

Post by jwb119 » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 7:26 PM UTC

yid wrote: post #11

jwb119 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey John, thanks for your comments. Really appreciate you taking a look and I hear your points. Your question is probably rhetorical, but we're certainly not trying to give legal advice here (and we've been careful to build this in a way that it's clearly an admin tool and not a replacement for legal advice). As far as the "jump right in goes" - just trying to fit in to the spirit of a Show HN and have people play ar…

> we've been careful to build this in a way that it's clearly an admin tool and not a replacement for legal advice While the parent comment was a bit harsh, literally the first point on your landing page is "A modern legal assistant", which really does sound like you're managing parts of the legal process that a lawyer normally would.

Hmm, we were actually going for the same point you're making by using that analogy. The thinking is that lawyers handle legal advice (and practice law), while legal assistants handle legal administrative work (and don't give legal advice or practice law). Maybe there's a better way to say that though. I'll think about it, thanks for bringing that up!

Re: Show HN: Ironclad – an automated legal assistant

#13

Post by thenipper » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 7:29 PM UTC

Are you planning on supporting more then just Dropbox?

I do nights/weekend IT support/systems design and setup for some small law practices and most of them are on Box. It's what has been recommended by the bar here in Massachusetts. Plus I've found it to fit a law office's workflow pretty well.

Before I could really evaluate this for a law office there would need to be a solid privacy policy in place as well as at least a blog post about data security.

I like that you're trying to move quick, but lawyers tend to move pretty slowly in adopting new technology. The concept is cool but as it stands now it'd be a hard sell.

Re: Show HN: Ironclad – an automated legal assistant

#14

Post by jwb119 » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 7:31 PM UTC

thenipper wrote: post #13

Are you planning on supporting more then just Dropbox? I do nights/weekend IT support/systems design and setup for some small law practices and most of them are on Box. It's what has been recommended by the bar here in Massachusetts. Plus I've found it to fit a law office's workflow pretty well. Before I could really evaluate this for a law office there would need to be a solid privacy policy in place as well as at l…

Yeah Box is great, and I agree a lot of enterprises use it. It'd be cool to work with them as well (though obviously we don't do it now).

Good points on the privacy policy and data security - it's a priority but not reflected on the site right now. We'll do that.

Thanks for taking a look :)

Re: Show HN: Ironclad – an automated legal assistant

#15

Post by nchudleigh » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 8:11 PM UTC

Looks really useful, we are looking at some working with contractors and this could really help us out.

Re: Show HN: Ironclad – an automated legal assistant

#16

Post by chinathrow » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 8:35 PM UTC

jwb119 wrote: post #4

detaro wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMHO, your page is badly missing legal information like a privacy policy

That's correct, we're working on getting that up. Thanks for pointing that out. Right now we're mainly just looking for feedback on whether this is something that people might find useful.

And an imprint or at least a contact address. Why would anyone share sensitive files without even that... can't imagine.

Re: Show HN: Ironclad – an automated legal assistant

#17

Post by a3camero » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 8:45 PM UTC

jwb119 wrote: post #12

yid wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we've been careful to build this in a way that it's clearly an admin tool and not a replacement for legal advice While the parent comment was a bit harsh, literally the first point on your landing page is "A modern legal assistant", which really does sound like you're managing parts of the legal process that a lawyer normally would.

Hmm, we were actually going for the same point you're making by using that analogy. The thinking is that lawyers handle legal advice (and practice law), while legal assistants handle legal administrative work (and don't give legal advice or practice law). Maybe there's a better way to say that though. I'll think about it, thanks for bringing that up!

"Legal advice" vs. "legal information" vs. "project management"/"clerical work"/"administrative work".

Legal assistants are often carrying out the instructions of lawyers. I've never seen one that operated independent of a lawyer.

Re: Show HN: Ironclad – an automated legal assistant

#18

Post by a3camero » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 8:47 PM UTC

jwb119 wrote: post #2

Hey HN! we created a better way to handle the most common paperwork needed by startups. Just sync a Dropbox folder with us and we’ll take care of all the legal paperwork for NDAs, Contractor agreements and LOIs and organize it in that folder automatically for you. We’re really looking for feedback on the flow and so any feedback is much appreciated. The best way to jump right in is to go through signup and do a Lette…

Who made the form agreements that you're using? You might be able to find a lawyer willing to supply you with these documents and also attach their name to them. That way your clients could have some confidence in the documents.

There are thousands of different NDA and contractor forms floating out there on the Internet but they don't come with explanations of the qualifications/experience of the drafter.

Re: Show HN: Ironclad – an automated legal assistant

#19

Post by jwb119 » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:02 PM UTC

a3camero wrote: post #18

jwb119 wrote: post #2

Hey HN! we created a better way to handle the most common paperwork needed by startups. Just sync a Dropbox folder with us and we’ll take care of all the legal paperwork for NDAs, Contractor agreements and LOIs and organize it in that folder automatically for you. We’re really looking for feedback on the flow and so any feedback is much appreciated. The best way to jump right in is to go through signup and do a Lette…

Who made the form agreements that you're using? You might be able to find a lawyer willing to supply you with these documents and also attach their name to them. That way your clients could have some confidence in the documents. There are thousands of different NDA and contractor forms floating out there on the Internet but they don't come with explanations of the qualifications/experience of the drafter.

> There are thousands of different NDA and contractor forms floating out there on the Internet but they don't come with explanations of the qualifications/experience of the drafter.

This is really interesting and something we're looking at. Looks like you're an attorney as well.. let me know if you have an interest in chatting about this!

Re: Show HN: Ironclad – an automated legal assistant

#20

Post by former_ls » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:05 PM UTC

I like the potential of this, but not sure how filling out forms could be automated just yet. In a former life, I worked as a legal secretary and there always seemed to be subtle requirements I would have to fulfill like knowing how many copies something needed, who got which copy, and being able to fill out docket sheets based upon lawyer workload and client timing. I eventually developed a suite of tools that helped me in my day to day tasks, but some I couldn't imagine how to automate in a meaningful way.

That said, the best thing I ever developed was my own filing system which ran in parallel with official office filing. I had a folder per case and client which I would keep raw documents and an electronic signed version of our pleadings. I would also have a digital copy of the other side's pleadings run through OCR. This process involved day-to-day work to keep it up to date, BUT it allowed me to answer questions like "Which pleading was it that they filed which said x a month ago?" in seconds instead of minutes/hours without robust search.