A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory • Hacker News Board

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#371

Post by rorykoehler » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 6:56 PM UTC

foota wrote: post #326

rorykoehler wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For basic goods there would be more demand (people who can't afford even basics would enter the market making the total market larger) in turn making it more attractive to compete there. People always go where there is opportunity. We are also on a long term trend of prices coming down in any case.

This is not how economics works. There are supply curves and there are demand curves, then there is the quantity supplied and quantity demanded. If the demand for a product shifts up (increases) due to basic income, then the quantity demanded increases. Then inventories of that product decrease, indicating that the firms could start producing more and still be able to sell it. They do this, but there costs go up, sin…

Everything will be automated. Cost per unit will be down. In an open competitive market without monopolies or price fixing cartels the price for high demand cheap basics gets driven down due to increased competition. For cheap basic good the main competitive strategy is to be cheaper than your rivals. It's the classic race to the bottom like we are seeing with low end electronics. The more the system fully automates and becomes hyper efficient the closer we move towards zero marginal cost.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#372

Post by a_c_s » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 6:56 PM UTC

frogpelt wrote: post #362

The basic income concept is intriguing to me (because it simplifies things) but I do not think it will work for this reason: Who administers the basic income? The government and by extension politicians. Once they have every single person who breathes on the dole, this will give them unbelievable leverage against the people. If the government is giving everyone a check, how hard is it to argue that the check should b…

Cutting all the programs needed to enable basic income would mean most public servants would lose their jobs.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#373

Post by mikehawkins » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 6:56 PM UTC

Silfen wrote: post #352

budu3 wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How will you deal with inflation? Wouldn't the sudden influx of many cause the price for basic goods, rent etc to go up?

If you pay for basic income with tax dollars, it will (theoretically) cause no long-term inflation. See: https://medium.com/basic-income/wouldnt-unconditional-basic-...

Thanks for including the source - that was my question as well.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#374

Post by cmdkeen » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 6:56 PM UTC

macspoofing wrote: post #364

The more I think about it, the more I really like the idea of a basic income. One of the great things about universal healthcare is that you just never worry about it. I never have to think about what would happen to myself or my spouse or my kids if they get cancer after I quit or lose my job. Whether my insurance will fight me on some treatment, or if it covers the rights things. It's nice. Basic income seems like…

You're describing non contributory Social Security not a basic income. The difference is that those systems usually make everyone but the retired look for work or be in education etc.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#375

Post by s73v3r » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 6:57 PM UTC

noreasonw wrote: post #115

The problem I see with any basic income scheme is that lazy people can get in the trap to become trapped in a lazy for ever state. Basic income should be accompanied with a policy to motivate people to develop their capabilities and enhance their self confidence. Once you are trapped in the basic income scheme and automation replaces all the low skilled jobs, lazy people can see themselves as completely disposable ob…

Set up a robot fighting league. Lots of people would want to participate.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#376

Post by s73v3r » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 6:58 PM UTC

noreasonw wrote: post #140

atlih wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't change people with a formula. There's a lot of lazy people working now today, to the detriment of society and the economy. Think of the opportunities though, a bunch of nerds could move up to the countryside and work on nuclear fusion and cure for cancer instead of having to apply at a bank or some ladder-climbing corporate gig.

I think that if you are able to do deep research in nuclear fusion or a cure for cancer you should also be able to find the way of earning a good salary under any circumstances and at the same time finding a way of allocating time for your real passion. Great people become greater under difficult circumstances. I don't think basic income should make a real difference in that. You can't change people with a formula bu…

"I think that if you are able to do deep research in nuclear fusion or a cure for cancer you should also be able to find the way of earning a good salary under any circumstances and at the same time finding a way of allocating time for your real passion."

In theory, sure. But in reality, most jobs suck. Even if you are of that level, odds are the job you'll get is going to be emotionally or mentally draining, and at the end of the day, you'll really just want to relax.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#377

Post by mikehawkins » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 6:58 PM UTC

My knee-jerk reaction was 'ah, jeez - there's going to be a big percentage of lazy people just gaming the system'. But on reflection, as some other posters have already said, these folks would probably not being looking for work regardless - and if this helps the majority be more productive and happy... to me, it's worth a punt to see what happens.

Good on you Utrecht - I love the bold thinking. It might not work - but at least they tried something new to address one of our oldest problems!

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#378

Post by pekk » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 7:00 PM UTC

logfromblammo wrote: post #318

saalweachter wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, government bureaucracies in first-world aren't as inefficient as some people make a living claiming. In the US, administrative expenses for Social Security run less than 1% of the budget. Medicaid and Medicare run with similar margins. Compare this to private-sector insurance in the US, where 80-85% "medical loss ratios" (ie, the fraction of premiums paid out for medical care, as opposed to the fraction kept for…

Bear in mind that "administrative expenses" can mean one thing to ordinary people, and something quite different to a government-sponsored accountant. When Medicare/Medicaid pays $150 for the same type of crutch that sells in a local pharmacy for $15, that difference does not go into "administrative expenses". I might prefer the expense of a human employee driving to Walgreens, buying a crutch off the shelf, and deli…

What distinguishes normal accountants from these apparently corrupt "government-sponsored accountants" who "cook the books"? Do they have pointy ears or forked tongues?

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#379

Post by cmdkeen » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 7:00 PM UTC

TTPrograms wrote: post #354

budu3 wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How will you deal with inflation? Wouldn't the sudden influx of many cause the price for basic goods, rent etc to go up?

Inflation doesn't necessarily follow. If everyone was given a 10% raise then you would get inflation, but a fixed distribution results in a very different effect. One possibility is that people would purchase roughly the same amount with the lower classes having free time to educate themselves rather than working minimum wage jobs. I mean, I can't imagine somebody throwing their lives away just to buy another loaf of…

What incentive do they have to educate themselves? After all they currently had an incentive to educate themselves during their period of compulsory education yet still ended up working in a minimum wage job they value so little they'd quit if they were given a minimum wage.

You don't see masses of low waged workers in countries with maximum working hours (and thus some leisure time) educating themselves.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#380

Post by s73v3r » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 7:00 PM UTC

eddd wrote: post #181

calanya wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Err, to help people who don't have any money?

You won't help people by addicting them to free money. Individuals should be independent, what if government change their mind and stops giving money away for free?

I dunno, what happens if your job stops giving you money?