A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory • Hacker News Board

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#121

Post by verinus » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:18 AM UTC

sktrdie wrote: post #103

verinus wrote: post #93

when it comes to utopian ideas i would prefer the right to work, to get a job to handing out cash to everybody. my reason: handing out cash destroys the incentives to do better and improve...and not all necessary jobs are actual fun to do and others would surely completely vanish...

That's probably because you've found a job that you like. In reality however most people hate their jobs and would rather do something else. This idea of living in a society where people need to do something they don't want in order to survive is a form of slavery.

> This idea of living in a society where people need to do something they don't want in order to survive is a form of slavery.

i want do dispute this. it disregards and diminishes true slavery. having to support one self is not slavery but the normal way of living...

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#122

Post by notahacker » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:18 AM UTC

robmcm wrote: post #95

anticon wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously? Do you not think you're in a bubble of 1%ers? Most people aren't itching to start a company you know... Most want to watch American Idol and do nothing.

The irony that you chose American Idol as the TV show is delightful. It's a prime example of people often from impoverished background trying to better them selves rather than sitting around doing nothing :)

Alternatively you could interpret American Idol as people spending one day a year pursuing an unlikely dream of lavish wealth before going back to the couch to see how the few contestants that made it through get on :)

I'm not sure "practising for reality TV shows" falls into the category of self-actualisation I'm particularly keen to uproot the economy as we know it to fund.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#123

Post by merijnv » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:19 AM UTC

anticon wrote: post #97

merijnv wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who says it has to be a company? How about that guy that wants make music but doesn't have the time to practice due to work. The girl that wants to paint, but is to tired after work. Why does everything have to be about companies and money? Can't you really imagine any useful social, artistic, or other things these "dumb, lazy" people might want to invest their time into? How about just being a stay at home parent an…

So you want to spend £240 billion pounds, twice the NHS budget in the UK, on helping struggling artists?

Struggling everyone. Why the hell is some bank CEO making several hundred million a year and we have people that can't even reliably be home in the evening to tuck their kids in because they're working 5 jobs. I'm all for taxing high-end income (coporate and private) even more to pay for this.

Why would everyone need to work anyway? It's not tenable. A few more years/decades and we'll have automated so much it'll be impossible to actually employ everyone. So unless you suggest we let everyone who is in a now obsolete field starve, I suggest we start thinking of how we're going to manage a society where it's just impossible for everyone to work.

EDIT: Also, where's this 240 billion figure coming from?

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#124

Post by siscia » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:20 AM UTC

PinguTS wrote: post #88

Basic income is a nice theory, but completely ignores the financing part. The money has to come from somewhere. I would be really fine with receiving a basic income. From the social side I would support it. People can do what they like, like artists, developers, and creative people. May be there will be the next business opportunity, startup from that work. Yes, may be other people are lazy, that is like today. There…

Where the money came from in our society ?

Let's normalize the total amount of money of today at 100.

If the economic grow of a 5% a year, in 365 days the total amount of money will be 105, where those 5 come from ?

Suppose you build a fountain, you pay whoever physically build it, and your money go from you to the builder, the total amount of money in the system is the same, it just change hand, however now your city enjoy a new fountain which bring some amount of new value.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#125

Post by taki1 » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:22 AM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #83

dagw wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

everyone has a personal project that gets sidelined for their work. For many people that project is to watch their favorite TV shows while eating their favorite ice cream.

No it isn't. That isn't their personal project. That's all they have the choice of doing. Most people do those things because they're tired after working hard all day for a wage that doesn't give them enough money to do anything but sit in front of the television. If people had the opportunity to work a bit less in their job so they could do something worthwhile and fulfilling in their spare time, most people would t…

Only at 115 - 120 IQ points one starts to be interested in "looking for information on their own". Not to mention things like building stuff on their own. 115-120 IQ is top 10% population. Maybe 20%. You are definitely over estimating general population. It is easy to do so of meeting only the smartest 20% when at university, work, family. I dare you ask McDonald's cashier next time what they want to do in life, or a salesperson in car dealership or retail store. I guarantee you it won't be "save some money to start my own business or build stuff". It will be "win a lottery and retire on tropical island". Don't trust me on my words, go outside your bubble and and run this experiment and let us know the result. Also, don't direct them into an answer, so it is honest.

It is not that they need to be punished on purpose, but yes, you need to have a system in place that incentives work and success, otherwise, yes, 80% of the population all they want is "free stuff". Obviously taken from top 20% because, you know, to them it is not like you had some sincere interest in something, or wanted to build something. To them you just got lucky, because to them the whole of humanity just wants to "win a lottery" and retire. As you can't understand and see that there are people in the world who just want to sit, watch TV, and enjoy themselves, the same way they can't see that there are people in the world who sincerely want to build stuff or obtain knowledge, not for money really, but because it is important to us.

Go outside your bubble, go visit a few places, and ask people about their long term plans or what they want to do. It won't be about contribution. It will be about consumption.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#126

Post by atlih » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:22 AM UTC

noreasonw wrote: post #115

The problem I see with any basic income scheme is that lazy people can get in the trap to become trapped in a lazy for ever state. Basic income should be accompanied with a policy to motivate people to develop their capabilities and enhance their self confidence. Once you are trapped in the basic income scheme and automation replaces all the low skilled jobs, lazy people can see themselves as completely disposable ob…

You can't change people with a formula. There's a lot of lazy people working now today, to the detriment of society and the economy. Think of the opportunities though, a bunch of nerds could move up to the countryside and work on nuclear fusion and cure for cancer instead of having to apply at a bank or some ladder-climbing corporate gig.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#127

Post by mierek4ever » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:23 AM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #83

dagw wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

everyone has a personal project that gets sidelined for their work. For many people that project is to watch their favorite TV shows while eating their favorite ice cream.

No it isn't. That isn't their personal project. That's all they have the choice of doing. Most people do those things because they're tired after working hard all day for a wage that doesn't give them enough money to do anything but sit in front of the television. If people had the opportunity to work a bit less in their job so they could do something worthwhile and fulfilling in their spare time, most people would t…

Only at 115 - 120 IQ points one starts to be interested in "looking for information on their own". Not to mention things like building stuff on their own. 115-120 IQ is top 10% population. Maybe 20%. You are definitely over estimating general population. It is easy to do so of meeting only the smartest 20% when at university, work, family. I dare you ask McDonald's cashier next time what they want to do in life, or a salesperson in car dealership or retail store. I guarantee you it won't be "save some money to start my own business or build stuff". It will be "win a lottery and retire on tropical island". Don't trust me on my words, go outside your bubble and and run this experiment and let us know the result. Also, don't direct them into an answer, so it is honest.

It is not that they need to be punished on purpose, but yes, you need to have a system in place that incentives work and success, otherwise, yes, 80% of the population all they want is "free stuff". Obviously taken from top 20% because, you know, to them it is not like you had some sincere interest in something, or wanted to build something. To them you just got lucky, because to them the whole of humanity just wants to "win a lottery" and retire. As you can't understand and see that there are people in the world who just want to sit, watch TV, and enjoy themselves, the same way they can't see that there are people in the world who sincerely want to build stuff or obtain knowledge, not for money really, but because it is important to us.

Go outside your bubble, go visit a few places, and ask people about their long term plans or what they want to do. It won't be about contribution. It will be about consumption.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#128

Post by siscia » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:23 AM UTC

I wonder if it is possible to design a schema to provide basic income to whoever need as a startup...

For sure you won't have problem find user, the churn rate would be very low, and you will really change the word.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#129

Post by zimpenfish » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:24 AM UTC

anticon wrote: post #104

onion2k wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We wouldn't need money for most benefits any more (pensions, income support, etc) so that's about £120bn of the £240bn found immediately. You mention the NHS - we'd be able to spend a lot less on that if people didn't have poverty-induced health problems, so there's another £35bn (assuming a 30% reduction of the £110bn). It's not unreasonable to assume that the difference of £85bn would essentially pay for itself by…

Yeah I'm sure you could find that missing £85bn down the back of a sofa in whitehall. Sorry, but the whole idea is laughable. Not to mention the fact that it's another incentive to have more children and bigger families because the state will give you more money.

> it's another incentive to have more children and bigger families

Should be easy to back that wild claim up with statistics. Can you?

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#130

Post by MDCore » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:25 AM UTC

noreasonw wrote: post #115

The problem I see with any basic income scheme is that lazy people can get in the trap to become trapped in a lazy for ever state. Basic income should be accompanied with a policy to motivate people to develop their capabilities and enhance their self confidence. Once you are trapped in the basic income scheme and automation replaces all the low skilled jobs, lazy people can see themselves as completely disposable ob…

> lazy people can get in the trap to become trapped in a lazy for ever state

Do you have any evidence for the existence of these lazy people, and in any significant number? The literature and actual experiments done with basic income shows that people are not lazy, but rather they lack opportunities, or a safety net for small risks, or any of a number of other things.