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Safari is the new IE

nolanlawson.com

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Re: Safari is the new IE

#131

Post by criley2 »

exelius wrote: post #60
LoSboccacc wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Safari on mobile is a bit of a different story; yes it has problems that's a understatement., working on ios safari has been a travesty: it steals a good 20% of view area and 25% of clickable area, it makes a mess with pages trying to be responsive by misreporting the viewport area, it has loads of bugs with resizing and orientation change events and just dies if one script in any page becomes unresponsive

Right, but the problems Safari has on mobile aren't going to be fixed by implementing IndexedDB; and honestly the WebSQL vs IndexedDB argument is irrelevant to most people: 95% of web developers will just use a framework that abstracts the differences. And I wouldn't claim that mobile Chrome is a whole lot better on this front, even (or especially) on Android. The limitations of mobile CPUs combined with higher user…

Chrome on Android works great and experiences literally zero of the issues mentioned for Safari.

Chrome for Android is an app, not a system component, and does not require Android point releases to be updated. It is frequently updated on a regular schedule by Google and pushed out to devices.

Using sources like www.caniuse.com, I frequently find that Safari/iOS does not support a feature that is supported on Android browsers and desktop browsers.

When designing responsive in 2015, I limit myself to Safari/iOS, the worst browser I build for, then quickly and effortlessly make sure all other browsers work.

That's my reality, Safari/iOS is the worst platform to develop for for me. I can't even remember the last time Chrome/Android had any issues that weren't also present on Chrome/Firefox/Desktop. Safari iOS though, even with CSS Resets, even with custom CSS, always finds a way to be non-standard with text size, or font weight with bold, or some "feature" that breaks Safari and nothing else.

Re: Safari is the new IE

#132

Post by mhomde »

at-fates-hands wrote: post #121
mhomde wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but before that IE fixed the web! :) Remember CSS on Netscape? IE4 was actually a beacon back in its day. Everything is cyclical: Lean - Average - Bloated - Lean - Average - Bloated

Are we currently in the bloated stage? - Chrome sucks up RAM like Photoshop. - Firefox Dev Edition is broken or slow every other build - IE is "ok"but their dev tools are incredibly sluggish and useless.

Yah, although some more than others. Microsoft looks ironically (or perhaps fittingly) to be the first into the next lean cycle with Microsoft Edge.

The browser game has changed and become commoditized. Before they went towards being monoliths with everything from email, to apps and games, various services etc. Those parts are being usurped by stand-alone services and apps and need to longer be integrated into the browser. I think that's good! Browsers should focus at being browsers. Better to be a 'la carte than bundle everything under the sun.

Also, I think the vision of HTML as a "universal" app/game platform is slowly dying. We're coming to terms with HTML is really good for somewhat basic presentation and interfaces, but not much more than that.

Although doing advanced stuff is possible it seems we're coming to the realization that it's neither practical nor performant

Re: Safari is the new IE

#133

Post by smhg »

advanderveer wrote: post #87

Here is an unpopular opinion: Maybe we should chill down on the constant innovation of "the web". I think we are at the point that we need some stablity, such that technologies (and companies!) build on top of it get some time to focus on maintainability, safety and usability instead of having to constantly spend time playing catch up.

I wouldn't say it is an unpopular opinion. I can imagine most have had a similar thought at one point or the other about some technology.

But what looks like constant innovation to one, is probably a long awaited feature to someone else.

Don't feel like you have to catch up. You don't have to (and probably can't) follow every single innovation. Rather try to limit what you follow. Yes, you might miss out on things, but that's happening anyway.

Re: Safari is the new IE

#134

Post by Touche »

Tloewald wrote: post #45
criswell wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely agreed. They want the web to lose.

Absolutely disagree. Apple wants to make the best experience for users because then they'll keep buying Apple products. If users want the web, then they make the browser better. If Apps are more appropriate, then they make apps better. Apple prioritizes stuff users care about -- battery life > IndexedDB, accessibility > WebGL. Until you understand this and stop thinking like a conspiracy theorist, you won't understan…

Can you explain how fixing IndexedDB bugs hurts battery life? Can you explain how WebRTC hurts battery life?

Re: Safari is the new IE

#135

Post by Klathmon »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #103
Klathmon wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's one thing to be the first to implement standards, it's another to completely ignore them for years. The "Chrome Experiments" was a way to show off the WebGL capability in chrome that no other browsers had at the time. (Now those demos will mostly work in all browsers) Plus you are forgetting that those are experiments. They were never really meant to be actual "apps". Making an experiment/demo for one browser is…

WebRTC is not really new any more - a couple of years old (and existed in other forms long before), and still not widely adopted. In fact, not adopted in a single further browser in that time, and the original two are not compatible. I'm thinking, its almost time to consider WebRTC 'failure to achieve traction'?

I'm sure as hell not married to the idea of WebRTC, but i desperately want something like it.

The ability to do peer-to-peer communication from the browser is an amazing tool. It allows the creation of client-side-only web apps which can easily send massive amounts of data to others. With WebRTC (or any other service like it) you can add video chat to a web app with very little work, and no real server side infrastructure that is more secure than the alternatives.

If it needs to be re-done in the name of getting it implemented widely that's fine with me and i welcome it, but if it's just NIH syndrome at microsoft holding it back, that's not okay.

Re: Safari is the new IE

#136

Post by mkj »

exelius wrote: post #80
chii wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why is that? does safari use some undocumented api, or that chrome sucks up more computing power in the name of rendering speed/responsiveness?

It's the latter. From what I've noticed, Chrome engages the dedicated GPU to speed up rendering. This by itself will cause a spike in power usage.

Yet Safari must be doing something with the GPU too, it scrolls quicker. I guess there's just more incentive to optimise a platform for Apple.

Re: Safari is the new IE

#137

Post by dcarmo »

Cshelton wrote: post #26

As a user, I love Safari. The hand off between my macbook and iphone is amazing, it feels smoother than other browsers. As a developer, I would say they are just doing a few things differently. I think the web API and DOM/css should have a standard set that every browser has to implement in the same way. It's actually way way better than it used to be. However, I'm fine with additional api features as targeting brows…

Handoff also works with Chrome - it only needs to be the default browser on your Mac.

Re: Safari is the new IE

#138

Post by cordite »

braythwayt wrote: post #79
exelius wrote: post #34

Disagree with this assessment. IE was so bad because Microsoft tried to go off and create its own standards that were incompatible with Mozilla / Firefox / etc. (I'm thinking of IE6 specifically). And this was big, core functionality like page layout and CSS; not some data structures that can be implemented in other ways (albeit with a performance hit). This was doubly bad because "enterprise" companies (SAP, SAS, Or…

> in my experience, it's the fastest browser on OS X by a pretty > wide margin. Chrome is so bloated and full of garbage at this > point that when I have it open, I usually have at least one tab > sitting at 100% CPU (and this is with FlashBlock enabled). Safari > also manages to feel faster while using significantly less power > -- I suspect Apple has done some optimizations through Grand > Central on this front. Th…

It also has better performance with retina, scrolling, less jank, and other user-experience/satisfaction related qualities.

It's dev tools aren't adequate for my use, but for being a user of other sites, it has been wholly sufficient.

Re: Safari is the new IE

#140

Post by gmfawcett »

josefresco wrote: post #94
NietTim wrote: post #38

Nolan, I'm not familiar with what you do or have done, but have you ever tried to make a website back in the day? Ever tried to support IE6? 7? 8? IE literally broke the web. CSS rules which worked in every browser ever wouldn't work in IE. Entire webpages weren't formatting correctly, having to spend hours, days, on workarounds. Comparing Safari to IE is just wrong. Safari doesn't break the web, it 'just' lacks supp…

I built websites during that entire period. I saw the rise and fall of Netscape, the "dark ages" of browser development when Microsoft let IE rot - I witnessed the birth of Firefox and the re-ignition of the "browser wars" when Google launched Chrome, and Apple got serious with Safari by moving to WebKit. The author is right, the details aren't the same but the same attitude exists. The author is simply speaking up b…

Offtopic, but your first paragraph sounds like Roy Batty's final monologue in Blade Runner. I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser Gate! :)
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