Live data from Hacker News

Safari is the new IE

nolanlawson.com

111–120 of 368 posts

Re: Safari is the new IE

#111

If Safari became a little too good, people might stop buying or developing apps.

Absolutely agreed. They want the web to lose.

If Apple really wanted to make Web Apps feel like a second class citizen, they wouldn't be adding Force Touch, custom AirPlay control support and Picture In Picture support to the upcoming version of Safari. Those are deep, native app level features that aren't even Web standards yet.

I assume Apple is underinvesting in safari simply because they have bigger fish to fry, and they are notoriously understaffed with competent engineers (or have bad project management).

Re: Safari is the new IE

#112
post #30

It isn't as bad as what led to IE's state that took several years of active development by Microsoft to even begin correcting. The gap between IE 6 and IE 7 was terrible, and IE 6 wasn't even that much more than IE 5, standards-wise. Here's an overview of what's new in Safari (WebKit) as it ships with OS X El Capitan: https://developer.apple.com/library/prerelease/mac/releaseno...

What people often forget is that there was a time when IE6 was actually better than the alternatives (on Windows anyway). Around the time it was released Navigator was the main competitor and that was getting progressively less stable and failed to keep up with the way the web was evolving. And by "evolving" I don't just mean new techniques/standards/whatever - simply the way the size of things was growing as people started to commonly have access to decent bandwidth. A key example I remember well is large nested tables (semantic markup was even less easy to get right cross-browser at that point) - Navigator would sometimes spin the CPU for a full minute to render a page that IE would throw out in seconds.

This is the secondary reason IE gained share quickly (the primary one being bundling, of course). Then Netscpae fell over and it didn't have competition at all for a while so MS simply stopped trying (why work to improve when there is no competition and you can use the resources to work on something else?) so IE gained even more share on Windows (other OSs were not large enough in the desktop market to figure at that point, and mobile browsing was embryonic) without any effort from MS. It wasn't until Firefox got to the point of being enough better to attract a large share that the tables started turning and even then the change was slow. Opera was significant around the time too, but it not being free (or not free without adverts) was a sticking point that stopped it being widely adopted.

That is a key problem that hopefully can't play out the same way these days though. No one browser, even mobile safari, is so commonly used that if it fails to keep up it can't start to be ignored, and away from iDevices we don't have the pure binary choice so if B doesn't keep up with A C and D probably will and B will be forced to (or it won't matter so much if B dies).

Re: Safari is the new IE

#113
post #38

Nolan, I'm not familiar with what you do or have done, but have you ever tried to make a website back in the day? Ever tried to support IE6? 7? 8? IE literally broke the web. CSS rules which worked in every browser ever wouldn't work in IE. Entire webpages weren't formatting correctly, having to spend hours, days, on workarounds. Comparing Safari to IE is just wrong. Safari doesn't break the web, it 'just' lacks supp…

Yes, but before that IE fixed the web! :) Remember CSS on Netscape? IE4 was actually a beacon back in its day.

Everything is cyclical: Lean - Average - Bloated - Lean - Average - Bloated

Re: Safari is the new IE

#114
post #46

If Safari became a little too good, people might stop buying or developing apps.

Which has been stated again and again, but was never an issue with Apple. First because what they make from the App Store is spare change for them. Second because they did have the best browser for a while, and did very much to advance the state of the art (from WebSQL, to Canvas, CSS 3D and other stuff, all originating there, along with the original fast-JITed JS engine who started the JS-race to what we have know).…

[deleted]

Re: Safari is the new IE

#115
post #38

Nolan, I'm not familiar with what you do or have done, but have you ever tried to make a website back in the day? Ever tried to support IE6? 7? 8? IE literally broke the web. CSS rules which worked in every browser ever wouldn't work in IE. Entire webpages weren't formatting correctly, having to spend hours, days, on workarounds. Comparing Safari to IE is just wrong. Safari doesn't break the web, it 'just' lacks supp…

I built websites during that entire period. I saw the rise and fall of Netscape, the "dark ages" of browser development when Microsoft let IE rot - I witnessed the birth of Firefox and the re-ignition of the "browser wars" when Google launched Chrome, and Apple got serious with Safari by moving to WebKit. The author is right, the details aren't the same but the same attitude exists. The author is simply speaking up b…

"the re-ignition of the "browser wars" when Google launched Chrome, and Apple got serious with Safari by moving to WebKit"

Moving to WebKit? Only if you count CyberDog, I guess. Safari was always WebKit based.

Also, your phrasing could be read as if Chrome came before Safari, but Safari is from 2003 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safari_version_history), Chrome from 2008 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Chrome_release_history).

Re: Safari is the new IE

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I built websites during that entire period. I saw the rise and fall of Netscape, the "dark ages" of browser development when Microsoft let IE rot - I witnessed the birth of Firefox and the re-ignition of the "browser wars" when Google launched Chrome, and Apple got serious with Safari by moving to WebKit. The author is right, the details aren't the same but the same attitude exists. The author is simply speaking up b…

"the re-ignition of the "browser wars" when Google launched Chrome, and Apple got serious with Safari by moving to WebKit" Moving to WebKit? Only if you count CyberDog, I guess. Safari was always WebKit based. Also, your phrasing could be read as if Chrome came before Safari, but Safari is from 2003 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safari_version_history ), Chrome from 2008 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Chrom…

Not only was Safari always WebKit based, WebKit is Apple's browser engine (forked from KHTML and open sourced) that Chrome used to use until they forked it.

Re: Safari is the new IE

#118

As a user, I love Safari. The hand off between my macbook and iphone is amazing, it feels smoother than other browsers. As a developer, I would say they are just doing a few things differently. I think the web API and DOM/css should have a standard set that every browser has to implement in the same way. It's actually way way better than it used to be. However, I'm fine with additional api features as targeting brows…

Handoff actually works for you? You're one in a million.

Re: Safari is the new IE

#119
post #9
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree except for the back button. I hate how swiping to go back takes you back to a screenshot temporarily while the page reloads. I attempt to scroll up and down and interact with the screenshot until suddenly the page isn't how I remember it due to the reload. It's such a terrible, terrible design and I check every new version in hopes that this would be addressed.

I'm fine with Safari, but the page refresh on back annoys me to no end

I really like this feature. A page redraw generally takes less time than the time needed for my eyes and brain to re-parse the page. When I have to stare at a blank page for a varying amount of time after having decided to go back, the entire navigation process feels very sluggish and slow. Using other browsers I find myself opening a lot more temporary tabs to account for this. Swipe and hold is also nice when you just need to go back to reread a few sentences, etc.

Most pages shouldn't need a refresh when you go back after a few seconds or minutes. What annoys me are websites that set stupid expiry times or Cache-Control values.

Re: Safari is the new IE

#120
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its in Apple's interest to not have Safari work well on older machines (since they want people to buy new machines), or improve it in ways that would make the browser better compete against the app store (especially on mobile). It is in their interest to have it be a very nice looking document viewing platform, which is where I imagine most of their developer resources are going towards.

Its in Apple's interest to not have Safari work well on older machines (since they want people to buy new machines) Then they're failing miserably, because as I (and others in this conversation) have attested to... Safari is noticeably faster than Firefox or Chrome on older Mac hardware. So I don't think your theory holds any water. Sorry. (Edit: My post was unclear. I and others feel that Safari, despite its other s…

I think he interpreted your post as being the opposite of what you meant it to say. You said the performance gap is more noticeable but you probably mean in favor of safari, although it could be interpreted either way.
Post reply on HN