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Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules

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Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules

#851
post #618

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if all we're doing is just changing the name.. then who really cares? Marriage isn't historically a religious institution, it's a civil one.

Yes, the civil and legal ramifications are important: - my inheritance: my spouse can get my SS income when I die, my wife inherits my goods by default, etc. Now gays get the same treatment. - taxes: are different for married and non-married folks. Now gays get the same treatment. IOW "follow the money". This ruling will change how much money the government pays to its citizens and how money is passed among its citiz…

I think our wires got crossed here. I'm arguing against the idea that we should change the name to civil unions and make it legal, as opposed to just legalizing equal "marriage".

Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules

#852
post #555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no problem with polygamy, as long as it is a consensual relationship between all adults involved. The real problem is that government has gotten into the marriage business and it doesn't belong there. The issues you mentioned (child custody, hospital visitation, inheritance rights) really have nothing to do with marriage and should all be assignable without a government endorsed marital contract.

How could it be consensual between all adults? The marriage "license" in polygamy is between man and women, yet by secondary effects the women are fully entangled with one another. Yet if you watch any show on polygamy you'll see that a guy will keep adding new, younger wives while holding their current wives hostage (due to their lack of another option in terms of housing, money, etc). It's absurd to think that any…

>How could it be consensual between all adults?

Are you trying to say multiple adults can't all agree on something? Your argument is based on ignorance and you're no better than the people who oppose gay marriage. You've been fed Christian and feminist propaganda to make you believe that only two consenting adults can love each other and that if you happen to love more than one person you shouldn't have the same rights as other people who don't.

You basically don't think polygamists are equal. Now let's see you do a full 360 from being pro-equality to using the same arguments the bigots used against you.

Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules

#853
post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Asking gay people to wait for a unicorn is bullshit. Please don't be That Guy. Ideological purity is so often the enemy of making the world better. But, why not? I'm a male. And I'm bisexual and polyamorus. I understand, and accept if a family wants to have 3 adults. Or 4 adults. I'm even OK if children are raised in that atmosphere. Right now, there are rules and restrictions on polygamy (which is a subset of poly…

I've often wondered if polyamorus families could make an end run around the old anti-polygamy laws by creating a corporation. It would give legal protection for shared property and money. Would also provide a mechanism for divorce by allowing the remaining people to buy out the shares of the person leaving. It wouldn't be perfect but it would be a start. I'm personally not poly in any way, but it's a fun thought expe…

IANAL but couldn't you argue that legal marriage is basically a special kind of corporation? One that pays way less taxes, sure, but still.

One part that might be different is the special rules for child custody, but there are extramarital legal arrangements for that too.

Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules

#854

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There has been basically nothing, in the history of our country, considered more of a state right than defining marriage. Sorry, this statement just isn't true: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loving_v._Virginia >The debates over everything in the past that led to amendments looked roughly the same as the debate over same sex marriage. For example, people beat each other on the floor of the senate chamber over slavery…

" Sorry, this statement just isn't true: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loving_v._Virginia" I'm aware of loving, which said nothing different? Loving basically said the same thing i did - they need a legitimate state interest. Race based discrimination is not a legitimate state interest. Therefore, Loving falls. That is sane legal theory. But it doesn't change this case? "So you are saying that every social issue must…

I don't think I can argue better than Obergefell v. Hodges itself where they cite Loving as precedent:

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/14pdf/14-556_3204.pdf

>Applying these established tenets, the Court has long held the right to marry is protected by the Constitution. In Loving v. Virginia , 388 U. S. 1, 12 (1967), which invali - dated bans on interracial unions, a unanimous Court held marriage is “one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men.” The Court reaffirmed that holding in Zablocki v. Redhail , 434 U. S. 374, 384 (1978), which held the right to marry was bur - dened by a law prohibiting fathers who were behind on child support from marrying. The Court again applied this principle in Turner v. Safley , 482 U. S. 78, 95 (1987), which held the right to marry was abridged by regulations limiting the privilege of prison inmates to marry. Over time and in other contexts, th e Court has reiterated that the right to marry is fundamental under the Due Process Clause. See, e.g., M. L. B. v. S. L. J. , 519 U. S. 102, 116 (1996); Cleveland Bd. of Ed. v. LaFleur , 414 U. S. 632, 639–640 (1974); Griswold , supra , at 486; Skinner v. Okla - homa ex rel. Williamson , 316 U. S. 535, 541 (1942); Meyer v. Nebraska , 262 U. S. 390, 399 (1923).

>A first premise of the Court’s relevant precedents is that the right to personal choice regarding marriage is inherent in the concept of individual autonomy. This abiding con - nection between marriage and liberty is why Loving inval - idated interracial marriage bans under the Due Process Clause. See 388 U. S., at 12; see also Zablocki , supra, at 384 (observing Loving held “the right to marry is of fun - damental importance for all individuals”). Like choices concerning contraception, family relationships, procrea - tion, and childrearing, all of which are protected by the Constitution, decisions concerning marriage are among the most intimate that an individual can make. See Law - rence , supra , at 574.

>ee App. to Brief for Appellant in Reed v. Reed , O. T. 1971, No. 70–4, pp. 69–88 (an extensive reference to laws extant as of 1971 treating women as unequal to men in marriage). These classifications denied the equal dignity of men and women. One State’s law, for example, pro- vided in 1971 that “the husband is the head of the family and the wife is subject to him; her legal civil existence is merged in the husband, except so far as the law recognizes her separately, either for he r own protection, or for her benefit.” Ga. Code Ann. §53–501 (1935). Responding to a new awareness, the Court invoked equal protection prin - ciples to invalidate laws imposing sex-based inequality on marriage. See, e.g., Kirchberg v. Feenstra , 450 U. S. 455 (1981); Wengler v. Druggists Mut. Ins. Co. , 446 U. S. 142 (1980); Califano v. Westcott , 443 U. S. 76 (1979); Orr v. Orr , 440 U. S. 268 (1979); Califano v. Goldfarb , 430 U. S. 199 (1977) (plurality opinion); Weinberger v. Wiesenfeld , 420 U. S. 636 (1975); Frontiero v. Richardson , 411 U. S. 677 (1973). Like Loving and Zablocki , these precedents show the Equal Protection Clause can help to identify and correct inequalities in the institution of marriage, vindicating precepts of liberty and equality under the Constitution.

Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules

#855
post #733

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I suspect that religious marriage existed long before nation states Do you have any actual evidence? Because here in reality-land, the evidence shows that the English legal tradition considered marriage a civil institution long before the churches tried to claim it.

Well, nation states have only existed for 500 years or so, and marriage is mentioned in the Bible and plenty of Ancient Greek writings. I'm not sure if that counts as evidence here in reality-land.

> Well, nation states have only existed for 500 years or so

Wat.

Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules

#856

Well, I know I'm probably a minority in saying this, but I'm disappointed - not because I don't think everyone should have access to the government rights attached to marriage, but because it seems our country doesn't actually want to fix problems at the root. What is the root problem? People on both sides of the debate agree (if given the option) that the government probably never should have messed with marriage, a…

"Marriage" is the term under which those rights are defined. Marriage is not a religious construct. Rather, religion and culture are deeply intertwined, but you seem to be accepting the Christian Right's assertion that it alone can define marriage. But I reject that claim. They are free to place their own restrictions on marriages their churches will endorse, but they are not free to define my marriage. Turning the word "marriage" over to "religion" (and ignoring the millions of religious people who fully support same-sex marriage) does more harm than good to reaching our goal of equality.

Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules

#857

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure it does: The trait of whom you choose as a partner. The trait of the structure of your union. The difference between the number of participants vs the gender distribution of the participants is academic.

> The difference between the number of participants vs the gender distribution of the participants is academic. That's incorrect. The difference is critical as it pertains to discrimination against a certain type of persons. Prohibition of gay marriage means "this type of person cannot marry that type of person"; this is a restriction based on type of person . Contrast that with prohibition of polyamorous marriage wh…

> The difference is critical as it pertains to discrimination against a certain type of persons.

How do you define "type"?

> Prohibition of poly-marriage has nothing to do with whom you choose as a partner.

Does it matter? It's still hindering people from being in the relationships they want.

> There is no whom, the only factor is how many, a quality completely detached from the qualities of any individual.

There is a whom: People who have multiple partners. The important quality of those individuals is the fact that they want more than one partner.

> The structure of one's union is not a trait of an individual.

If it were not a trait, then we'd see no preference one way or the other, and yet we do see preference; preference strong enough to lead to prohibition.

Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules

#858
post #844
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can anybody counter Scalia, and say why the issue of gay marriage couldn't wait to be resolved by the states? For the same reason that slavery couldn't be resolved by the states. For the same reason that racism can't be resolved by the states. Because these things haven't gotten resolved by states. The United States of America, sadly, has a significant minority of people who Just Don't Get It, and there are enough…

> or the same reason that slavery couldn't be resolved by the states. For the same reason that racism can't be resolved by the states. Because these things haven't gotten resolved by states. I'm not so sure that the states would not have resolved it (Edit: gay marriage, not slavery). 13 years ago, there were 0 US states with legal gay marriage. 6 years ago it was 3. 2 years ago it was 12. Yesterday, it was 36 states…

> I'm not so sure that the states would not have resolved it [slavery].

Opinions among historians seem to vary, but the impression I've gotten (albeit not with any careful study) has been that the slave states likely would have been extremely slow to abolish slavery, because:

1) the dollar value ascribed to enslaved people represented a huge proportion of the wealth of politically-powerful slave owners; and

2) many non-slave-owning voters in the slave states --- all white males, of course --- aspired to become slave owners and thus tended to sympathize with the interests of slave owners.

Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules

#859
post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no problem with polygamy, as long as it is a consensual relationship between all adults involved. The real problem is that government has gotten into the marriage business and it doesn't belong there. The issues you mentioned (child custody, hospital visitation, inheritance rights) really have nothing to do with marriage and should all be assignable without a government endorsed marital contract.

That's much more along the lines of what I think. It's kind of the libertarian dilemma - with Gay Marriage, there's one huge, loud camp of religious homophobic bigots demanding that big daddy Government say that Gay Marriage is an illegal abomination, and another huge, loud group of homosexual-rights activists demanding that big daddy Government say that Gay Marriage is a-ok and governments everywhere are required to…

It is politically unviable because it would basically take away the current benefits from straight married couples to further a libertarian pipe dream.

Politics is the art of the possible: extending marriage benefits to gays and lesbians is a lot easier than clawing it away from all straight couples in order to satisfy a desire for libertarian ideological BS.

Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules

#860
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are quite a lot of people who argued that changing the definition of marriage was an infringement of their religious rights. I've never been clear on how that was supposed to happen but maybe you can dig it out of the oral arguments.

I am one of those religious types - if I may give you me reasoning or at least my ideas: The immediate difficulty comes when we as religious citizens have trouble with separating what is civilly permissible with what is a religious ideal. Long term, religious people are worried that our institution and faith will not be allowed to continue if a super-majority deems us unworthy - as we have seen through history. As fo…

The immediate difficulty comes when we as religious citizens have trouble with separating what is civilly permissible with what is a religious ideal.

Indeed. You, or any other religious group, can have whatever prohibitions you believe in your own lives, homes and churches. Different groups can have different prohibitions. However, they must therefore be kept separate and out of the public law and state, because that space can only accomodate one or zero religions. The US constitution specifies zero: no establishment of religion. This enforces a ceasefire between the doctrines that would otherwise fight to be the one doctrine that has control of the state, as Europe experienced during the Reformation and Islam is experiencing in the Sunni-Shia conflict.

For decades if not longer it was non-straight people who were deemed unworthy and not allowed freedom from persecution by the religious supermajority. There really isn't a desire to put the boot on the other foot - provided you don't condemn people.

Perhaps if the spiritual and temporal benefits of marriage were entirely separable this wouldn't be a problem. But the UK tried it with civil partnerships and it was so obviously a "separate but equal" (ie not equal) arrangement that full equal marriage was enacted.

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