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Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules

nytimes.com

281–290 of 1001 posts

Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules

#281

While this is excellent news for my gay and lesbian friends, I see no progress on polygamy. Which, unlike same-sex marriage, is an institution with deep roots both in America (the Mormons were forced to give up this sacrament as a condition of statehood) and in the majority of world cultures, where it ranges from condoned to celebrated. Without getting unduly personal, let's say that I have a stake in that question b…

Polygamy is a Christian institution. It was pointedly prescribed in the old testament. Modern anti-polygamists will argue that the old testament prescription was a matter of necessity, and that new testament language (particularly Paul's) prescribes monogamy, but to my eyes the new testament's position is pretty casual, while the old testament's is quite strong.

No. Polygamy happened in the Old Testament. It was never prescribed and it never ended well.

Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules

#282

Is there a general summary of the arguments made by the dissenting 4?

It's almost assuredly a "States Rights" argument. I'd be really shocked if it wasn't.

Well all rights not defined in the Constitution are inherently in the domain of the states. Marriage is not within the Constitution and this was not a Constitutional issue. This came before the courts mainly because Federal Law needed to be applied to all states for issues concerning pay, benefits, visitation, and so on. So it was more similar to interstate commerce than anything, it certainly wasn't under the equal protection clause because there had not been a national law denoting the designation as existing. No any attempts to say other wise can be slapped down by 14th Amendment challenges - as in gay couples are designated properly within the confines of the law (likely it may take a bill similar to the civil rights law to make it unquestionable)

Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules

#283
post #235

While this is excellent news for my gay and lesbian friends, I see no progress on polygamy. Which, unlike same-sex marriage, is an institution with deep roots both in America (the Mormons were forced to give up this sacrament as a condition of statehood) and in the majority of world cultures, where it ranges from condoned to celebrated. Without getting unduly personal, let's say that I have a stake in that question b…

10 years from now. HN Headline: Polygamy upheld by supreme court Comment: While this is excellent news for my polygamous friends, I see no progress on [insert new deviation here]. --- So what do you all think will be the next big thing?

Incest amongst consenting adults.

Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules

#284
post #17

For me and a lot of friends and family, marriage equality. Yay. "It is now clear that the challenged laws burden the liberty of same-sex couples, and it must be further acknowledged that they abridge central precepts of equality . . . Especially against a long history of disapproval of their relationships, this denial to same-sex couples of the right to marry works a grave and continuing harm. The imposition of this…

I'm glad that my LBG friends can now marry anywhere. But damn, Scalia's counter opinion (and Roberts' opinion) strike me as well-considered and well-argued in the 2nd half of http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/14pdf/14-556_3204.pdf . In brief, their view was that resolving this issue in the courts erodes the democratic process. Can anybody counter Scalia, and say why the issue of gay marriage couldn't wait to be re…

Scalia's argument isn't that marriage equality is an issue for the states. It that it's an issue for the legislature; that is, that the people should decide on it, rather than an interpretation of our secular scripture.

It's helpful to remember that the balance of powers were carefully designed, with an overarching purpose of not centralizing power into a monarchy or aristocracy. We are by design not a nation governed by a panel of philosopher-kings.

Because the Supreme Court has lifetime tenure --- a design feature intended to isolate the justices from politics, not embed them in it --- there's a lot of tension involved in their powers. Unlike politicians, they can't easily be removed if there's a popular outcry against their decisions. They're the guardians of the Constitution. But the Constitution is first and foremost a document of procedural safeguards: it is most coherently and powerfully understood as a mechanism to ensure that all citizens have open channels to the decision-making of their own governance. The procedures of US government are meant to be zealously protected, but the substance is supposed to be left to the people.

So a lot of the dissent in today's result is best read as, "regardless of what we think of marriage equality, who are we to override the decisions of the people?" And further militating against today's substantive intervention by five pro-equality justices is the fact that marriage equality isn't really a process right. Whether or not your marriage is recognized has actually not much bearing on whether you're capable of making your voice heard.

Of course, there are even more powerful arguments in favor of marriage equality. For one thing, the black letter language of the Constitution, right smack in the beginning of it prior to any amendments, requires all the states to honor each other's judicial proceedings, public acts, and records. To allow Mississippi to reject a Massachusetts same-sex marriage is to contravene the process set up in the Constitution directly. That can happen, but probably not when the conflict is animated entirely by discrimination against a class of people.

All this is just to say: don't be too quick to discard the intellectual argument against Supreme Court-enforced marriage equality. There will be times in your life where the same arguments are going to make a lot more sense, applied to other issues.

Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules

#285

While this is excellent news for my gay and lesbian friends, I see no progress on polygamy. Which, unlike same-sex marriage, is an institution with deep roots both in America (the Mormons were forced to give up this sacrament as a condition of statehood) and in the majority of world cultures, where it ranges from condoned to celebrated. Without getting unduly personal, let's say that I have a stake in that question b…

Polygamy is a deeply troublesome arrangement, with a storied history of abuse. It has been steadily abandoned and outlawed as societies grant more legal rights and self-determination to women. There is simply no way to legally recognize poly* relationships under the law in a way that resembles binary marriage.

Monogamy also has a storied history of abuse. Up until the 1970's it was perfectly legal for a man to rape his wife. This does not make it fundamentally impossible for healthy and consensual monogamous relationships to exist, and neither does the supposed behavior of 19th century Mormons make it impossible for healthy and consensual polygamous relationships to exist.

Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules

#286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The judges should declare all consenting marriage legal ! If it is truly consenting, taking into account the modern defined limits on who can give consent, why not? A polygamous relationship is already legal in practice (adultery and extra-marital sex are not crimes). The paperwork and law changes aren't going to be simple, but besides for that I don't see a justification in continuing the ban.

Polygamous/polyamorous relationships can easily be supported from a property rights standpoint using corporate entities (LLCs). I see it as the ultimate social/political hack for a right.

Could you elaborate, or point to some material which expounds on this hack?

Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules

#287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The judges should declare all consenting marriage legal ! If it is truly consenting, taking into account the modern defined limits on who can give consent, why not? A polygamous relationship is already legal in practice (adultery and extra-marital sex are not crimes). The paperwork and law changes aren't going to be simple, but besides for that I don't see a justification in continuing the ban.

Polygamous/polyamorous relationships can easily be supported from a property rights standpoint using corporate entities (LLCs). I see it as the ultimate social/political hack for a right.

[deleted]

Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a case of states violating the constitution of the united states. It's a pretty clear violation of equal protection. It's not up to the states to decide this. Rights of a minority should not be left to the democratic process.

Yes, but why this minority? Why not allow 12 year olds to marry as a consititutional right? Why not allow brothers and sisters to marry? I'm not trying to make a slippery slope argument. I'm really asking. States license things all the time, and the conditions of their licenses block certain people from doing certain things. Why are the courts blocking the right of states to license this activity (marriage) in this p…

Well children are always an exception.

Siblings/cousins creep most people out due to inbreeding, but honestly I don't really see a problem with it if they promise to not have kids. (I'm an only child though, so I don't have any perspective)

Polygamy also seems like it should be legal to me, as long as everyone is a fully consenting adult.

Basically I just think the government should just stay out of peoples lives as much as possible.

Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules

#289
post #235

While this is excellent news for my gay and lesbian friends, I see no progress on polygamy. Which, unlike same-sex marriage, is an institution with deep roots both in America (the Mormons were forced to give up this sacrament as a condition of statehood) and in the majority of world cultures, where it ranges from condoned to celebrated. Without getting unduly personal, let's say that I have a stake in that question b…

10 years from now. HN Headline: Polygamy upheld by supreme court Comment: While this is excellent news for my polygamous friends, I see no progress on [insert new deviation here]. --- So what do you all think will be the next big thing?

Polygamy is hardly a new deviation, if indeed a deviation at all.

Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules

#290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage#Timeline 2001 — Netherlands 2001 — Belgium 2005 — Spain, Canada 2006 — South Africa 2009 — Norway, Sweden 2010 — Portugal, Iceland, Argentina 2012 — Denmark 2013 — France, Brazil, Uruguay, New Zealand 2014 — England and Wales 2015 — Luxembourg, Ireland, United States of America 2017 — Finland (the law is voted and signed but not yet in effect) > I mean, Massachusetts le…

So being in the first 10% of countries to legalize is "Catching up?" We're number 20 out of 195.

Not to mention the population of the US is almost larger than every other country on that list combined.

It's an astounding feat to have accomplished such a vast cultural change in such a short amount of time. I've read recently that upwards of 25% of the entire US population has shifted its view on gay marriage in just ten years.

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