Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#121

Post by cwyers » Thu, Jun 25, 2015, 3:29 PM UTC

sneak wrote: post #91

cwyers wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are. If you don't like this, buy someone else's phone.

That's not how competition works. Choice is good for consumers. I'm an AAPL shareholder too but that doesn't mean you should be an apologist. Someone else's phone won't access the huge amounts of data I have in iCloud. Or are you actually advocating for vendor lock-in as a force for good? I don't understand.

You signed a contract with Apple governing what they can and can do, and what you can and can't do. Your complaints on Hacker News after the fact are not binding on Apple.

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#122

Post by jasonlotito » Thu, Jun 25, 2015, 3:30 PM UTC

MBCook wrote: post #104

This is a very Apple move. When I saw it, I wasn't surprised. There are Civil War games where it makes total sense for the flag to show, and there are probably a few tasteless "The south will rise again" things that never should have been allowed on in the first place. But it takes a lot of people and time to figure it out for each app on the store. And when it comes to this kind of stuff Apple doesn't like spending…

> But it takes a lot of people and time to figure it out for each app on the store.

They've already approved these apps. They already have the people to approve these apps.

> And when it comes to this kind of stuff Apple doesn't like spending lots of people and time on these kind of things.

Incorrect. They've already demonstrated they want to do this. After all, you had to have people find and remove these apps in the first place.

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#123

Post by ethbro » Thu, Jun 25, 2015, 3:31 PM UTC

SomeStupidPoint wrote: post #80

refurb wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly suspect they wrote that expressively in case a court ever looks at Apple's policies, and needs to decide if Apple is silencing art/freedom of speech Why would that end up in court? Apple is a private company. It's free to include/exclude whatever content it wants. Consumers don't have a right to force a company to provide the content they want.

Using a monopoly position in the market to influence what kind of media is available on the market at large, however, can get you in trouble with courts. Get in trouble for anti-monopoly stuff usually requires two parts: that you be a monopoly and that you somehow use it. Shaping a market to your desires is an example of using your monopoly standing. Apple won't get in trouble because they're not a monopoly, but that…

For ~50M (statistics?) iPhone users, they're a monopoly, no?

IANAL, but I feel like there were previous monopoly cases successfully brought on behalf of far smaller groups than that. E.g. the fact that I'm a vegetarian doesn't invalidate a steak-knife monopoly

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#124

Post by k-mcgrady » Thu, Jun 25, 2015, 3:32 PM UTC

bobcostas55 wrote: post #107

k-mcgrady wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very true. I don't like the idea of being so rigid though. It seems like Americans stick to the idea of things like free speech or right to bear arms (basically constitutional ideas) without considering the fact they may not be right or times have changed. It's almost a religious zealotry as evidenced by the quick down voting of my post. NB (to everyone not noarchy): Down down vote things you disagree with - down vot…

>Down down vote things you disagree with - down vote things that don't add to the conversation. The irony is palpable.

Not really. I don't think we should forget about symbols like that flag. They should be debated openly and freely. Same goes for the debate here. But if a large group of people are intimated by the 'speech' (Flag) then I think it's perfectly reasonable to remove it.

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#125

Post by thomnottom » Thu, Jun 25, 2015, 3:33 PM UTC

yequalsx wrote: post #76

Here is part of Mississippi's Declaration of Secession: "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery - the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product, which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the…

I saw a quote from a historian years ago (I wish I could find it) that went something like this: When I was young I thought the Civil War was about slavery, When I started to learn more about history I thought it was about more than slavery, When I really studied the Civil War I realized it was completely about slavery.

It's easy for people to get tripped up by their own ideologies and lose site of the time period that the Civil War occurred in. If you're all about states' rights these days, it's easy to focus on that part of the Civil War because it fits your narrative. Unfortunately it ignores that the only states' right that they were really concerned with was that which kept slavery legal.

I know this because there was definitely a time when I felt that way. Thankfully I eventually realized I was wrong.

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#126

Post by BonsaiDen » Thu, Jun 25, 2015, 3:33 PM UTC

kuschku wrote: post #84

infimum wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes, they actually are. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#Germany

No, they are not: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9777948

They are. Games are not recognized as art here in Germany, so they do not get the same treatment as movies or books and have to remove the references. International releases of these games are actually illegal in Germany and owning them is an indictable act, although actual criminal charges are very rare (since there's hardly a way of controlling the digital distribution).

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#127

Post by norea-armozel » Thu, Jun 25, 2015, 3:33 PM UTC

yequalsx wrote: post #113

norea-armozel wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Burying our head in the sand about the nature of our history won't make the racism we have today go away. If anything, it will aggravate it further as racists will find this a tool to promote their agenda.

Of course it won't make racism go away. Its banning has the positive effect of making overtly racist symbols less socially acceptable. It will aggravate anger amongst racists but I don't think it will spread said racism.

I'm fairly sure that racism in America is pretty much alive. Racism doesn't always mean calling someone a racial slur or re-enacting the curb stomping scene from American History X, more often it means looking at other people as less than you or more dangerous or unemployable. That racism is still very normal in America and it will take more than a generation for it die out.

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#128

Post by Shivetya » Thu, Jun 25, 2015, 3:35 PM UTC

So we are to assume they will remove Dukes of Hazard from iTunes to complete their kneejerk reaction to this issue? There are probably quite a few album covers with that flag or approximations of it, let alone TV shows and movies.

American Civil War games are not racist nor is representing the Civil War or any other conflict in a game. What is next? Scrubbing history books of any offending flag or words?

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#129

Post by nmrm2 » Thu, Jun 25, 2015, 3:35 PM UTC

yequalsx wrote: post #76

Here is part of Mississippi's Declaration of Secession: "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery - the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product, which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the…

> It astounds me that there are large numbers of whites in this country who think the Civil War was about anything other than slavery.

Indoctrination with these beliefs in pretty common at high schools in places like Mississippi and S. Carolina, and even at (rural) high schools in border states. We watched Gone With the Wind in my History class in high school. Not when discussing e.g. "the role of film in civil rights/modern history" mind you, but when discussing reconstruction. It was pretty explicitly treated as a more-or-less accurate portrayal.

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#130

Post by norea-armozel » Thu, Jun 25, 2015, 3:35 PM UTC

jrs235 wrote: post #117

norea-armozel wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Burying our head in the sand about the nature of our history won't make the racism we have today go away. If anything, it will aggravate it further as racists will find this a tool to promote their agenda.

I concur, and I think it might be doing even more disservice as many will shortly be quick to say "Racism? Racism isn't a problem. We got rid of the Confederate flag." By removing the visible signs of issues, you remove the easiest ways to talk about and educate others about the issue.

Exactly. No one really talks much about how biracial people are mistreated in the US, but it happens all too often (A couple close friends had to deal with it all their lives). And yet I've had people tell me "But Obama is President, so there can't be racism now." Pfft!