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An Incredibly Detailed Map of Europe's Population Shifts

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Re: An Incredibly Detailed Map of Europe's Population Shifts

#51

Post by guard-of-terra »

jameshart wrote: post #48
guard-of-terra wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

England has forests, nature reserves, fjords elsewhere. That's why this region can be so dense? Why would you want to build up everything? Where's the gain I wonder?

Setting questionable English 'fjords' aside, the point isn't that it would be desirable to have a population of 30 million in Ireland, but that it would be possible , without having the population density (and presumably poverty) of Bangladesh. You asked how a small island in the north atlantic could sustain more than 30 million people - well, South East England has a population density of about 1200 people per squar…

Yes it is possible, but why would you ever want that?

Why want Dublin faster grown and thus soulless? Why want Irish spirit to be abolished and replaced with hive mentality?

I could totally understand you if Ireland would be declining, but it's thriving, attracting people, growing naturally when most nations struggle at that. You're in a perfect position and you want to replace it with something random?

Re: An Incredibly Detailed Map of Europe's Population Shifts

#52

Post by justincormack »

jameshart wrote: post #22
guard-of-terra wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If the famine didn't happen Ireland could easily have a population of over 30 Million" Would you really want to become Bangladesh? 30 Million seems an awfully high number for a country of such size and latitude.

If Ireland had similar population density to Southeast England, it would have a population of around 39 million.

It would need a larger city to make that happen though - Dublin is an order of magnitude smaller than London. Now a x10 scaling of Dublin would be interesting though.

Re: An Incredibly Detailed Map of Europe's Population Shifts

#53

Post by chad_oliver »

guard-of-terra wrote: post #51
jameshart wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Setting questionable English 'fjords' aside, the point isn't that it would be desirable to have a population of 30 million in Ireland, but that it would be possible , without having the population density (and presumably poverty) of Bangladesh. You asked how a small island in the north atlantic could sustain more than 30 million people - well, South East England has a population density of about 1200 people per squar…

Yes it is possible, but why would you ever want that? Why want Dublin faster grown and thus soulless? Why want Irish spirit to be abolished and replaced with hive mentality? I could totally understand you if Ireland would be declining, but it's thriving, attracting people, growing naturally when most nations struggle at that. You're in a perfect position and you want to replace it with something random?

Why would anyone ever want that? Because people have different opinions about what is best. You are absolutely entitled to think that a more populous Ireland would be a bad thing, but you're being downvoted because you can't seem to see that that's just a personal preference, not an absolute truth.

Personally, I live in New Zealand (population: 4.5 million), and I'd strongly prefer it if we had twice as many people. A bigger population can sustain a healthier economy, with more opportunities for everyone. However, I'm well aware that I'm an outlier; most people think differently and I respect that.

Re: An Incredibly Detailed Map of Europe's Population Shifts

#54

Post by eropple »

WildUtah wrote: post #40
lagadu wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... Ireland has less than a fifth of the population density the Netherlands has. They don't particularly strike me as a "jam packed horror".

You're talking about a country so insanely crowded that they actually manufacture land out of the sea just to squeeze themselves in. In fact, they're famous for it because it's so awful and crazy. There's significant danger that rising oceans and a major storm could kill millions. That sounds like horror to just about everyone. And Netherlands has adjacent countries not so dense as itself with forests and open space…

I just spent a fantastic vacation in Ireland, traveling between Dublin, Cork, and Galway by car--which meant a lot of narrow but very well-kept roads between many tiny towns. The idea that double, even triple, the population of Ireland would somehow not have "forests and open space to adjourn to" is...well...it's interesting.

Wait, did I say interesting? I meant "horse manure". That is an empty country, with plenty of room and remarkably little need for the sort of xenophobia you've espoused in this thread (a xenophobia that no one I met in Ireland seemed into, either!). And I don't think HN needs it, either.

Re: An Incredibly Detailed Map of Europe's Population Shifts

#55

Post by crdb »

Someone wrote: post #25
merb wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should the growth of economy be a miracle if the population is shrinking? Mostly that's why the population is shrinking, people who live in the better economies, mostly have less kids, mostly due to the fact that they don't have the time and mostly working harder than others. Also our economy grown mostly cause of the fact that our strong export got a huge increase since we had a european currency ("Deutsche Mark…

If your population grows, you get some growth 'for free' in the sense that it doesn't require productivity to increase. If the population shrinks, keeping the economy flat already requires productivity improvements. Growing it at a time where other economies with growing populations can't is a bit of a miracle. Those increased exports still have to be produced.

He's partly correct: German growth is by design.

First, enter a monetary union with weaker economies with dubious credit, at a really advantageous rate for these economies but effectively substantially depressing the new Deutsche Mark.

Second, lend like crazy to these countries whilst markets believe Greek paper to have the same default risk as German.

Third, as the neighbouring countries are using the newly available borrowing and their strong new euros to go on a spending binge, provide the products.

With both guaranteed demand in Europe guaranteeing large volume, and an effective 40% discount on German exports vs where they should be with the Deutsche Mark, you can take market share from the Korean and Japanese let alone Americans and even avoid having your manufacturing sector destroyed by Chinese competition. In Europe it's even worse, VW thrives as Rover goes under.

The best part is that when Southern European credit finally catches up with where it should be trading, you get to brag about your wunderbar Mittelstand values and insult those pesky lazy Southerners, whilst reinforcing the very actions that guarantee you the continuation of de facto devaluation policies without being responsible for them (and therefore getting booted out of office by an angry German electorate annoyed at being underpaid on a global basis). Invisible tax FTW. Even those Germans who might have pieced it together will hesitate before putting any real pressure towards, say, a Grexit, because their pension fund is invested to the neck in Greek paper. Meinen Kinder will sort it out, but I arbeit so hard all my life, surely I deserve to enjoy my pension...

So, not a miracle, it is by design, a rather magnificent one too. One that, long term, seems to beat sending the Fallschirmjaeger on Kreta.

Re: An Incredibly Detailed Map of Europe's Population Shifts

#56

Post by WildUtah »

eropple wrote: post #54
WildUtah wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're talking about a country so insanely crowded that they actually manufacture land out of the sea just to squeeze themselves in. In fact, they're famous for it because it's so awful and crazy. There's significant danger that rising oceans and a major storm could kill millions. That sounds like horror to just about everyone. And Netherlands has adjacent countries not so dense as itself with forests and open space…

I just spent a fantastic vacation in Ireland, traveling between Dublin, Cork, and Galway by car--which meant a lot of narrow but very well-kept roads between many tiny towns. The idea that double, even triple, the population of Ireland would somehow not have "forests and open space to adjourn to" is...well...it's interesting. Wait, did I say interesting? I meant "horse manure". That is an empty country, with plenty o…

Oh, it's so nice you've seen the country from a car. A manufactured experience professionally landscaped by traffic engineers observed from within a machine those engineers are employed to promote taught you all you need to know about a country.

Ireland is almost empty of wilderness and has scant backcountry. Even the mountain ranges have a very few trails backed by industrial tree farms. Most of the supposed forest left is so tightly controlled that the wave pattern of regularity produces moire patterns in the trees. All the life, nature and interest is squeezed out.

There's certainly no place left to seek extended solitude or homestead cheap land. The youth of the countryside are leaving or escaping to cities. I'm glad the nearly-indoor controlled experience of the roads was nice for you, but Ireland is full and bursting at the seams. More people will only make it worse.

Re: An Incredibly Detailed Map of Europe's Population Shifts

#57

Post by visarga »

locacorten wrote: post #27
notNow wrote: post #17

Anyone have any idea why in the countries most hit by the recession (Spain, Italy and Greece to name a few) there's striking divergence between population growth specifically decreasing Greece on one hand while increasing in Italy and Spain in general despite the three of them share the same dynamics at play and especially Greece and Spain?

Eastern Europeans are much more likely to migrate to Italy and Spain than to Greece. Romanians especially. One reason is that Romanian is closer to Italian and Spanish than to Greek.

It's also a self fueling process, as the current migrant workers help others migrate and find jobs. The more Romanians there are in a country, the easier it is to migrate there.

Re: An Incredibly Detailed Map of Europe's Population Shifts

#58

Post by e2e4 »

It is interesting that many NH posters have a negative view on immigration from eastern europe. However, the effect on the countries from which people emigrate (I am somewhat familiar with Baltics) is quite tough. Imagine having a large portion of hard working energetic people suddenly leave.

Re: An Incredibly Detailed Map of Europe's Population Shifts

#59

Post by lagadu »

WildUtah wrote: post #40
lagadu wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... Ireland has less than a fifth of the population density the Netherlands has. They don't particularly strike me as a "jam packed horror".

You're talking about a country so insanely crowded that they actually manufacture land out of the sea just to squeeze themselves in. In fact, they're famous for it because it's so awful and crazy. There's significant danger that rising oceans and a major storm could kill millions. That sounds like horror to just about everyone. And Netherlands has adjacent countries not so dense as itself with forests and open space…

Your "not so dense" country, Germany, has more than 3 times the density Ireland does.

Re: An Incredibly Detailed Map of Europe's Population Shifts

#60

Post by userulluipeste »

e2e4 wrote: post #58

It is interesting that many NH posters have a negative view on immigration from eastern europe. However, the effect on the countries from which people emigrate (I am somewhat familiar with Baltics) is quite tough. Imagine having a large portion of hard working energetic people suddenly leave.

I imagine (and see it daily all around me actually). This poses to local authorities a hard problem, the outcome of which will either be a spiral down or a remedy of some sort.
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