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Mattermost: Open-source, on-premises, Slack alternative

mattermost.org

141–150 of 222 posts

Re: Mattermost: Open-source, on-premises, Slack alternative

#141

> Teams who can’t use SaaS rely on cryptic, decades-old technologies. As an example, the US Army uses myIRC to order missile strikes "myIRC" doesn't exist. The name of the protocol is IRC. The name of a popular Windows client is mIRC. WikiLeaks called their leak "mIRC logs," which is where this trope came from. The United States military (not just the Army) uses Internet Relay Chat for a whole lot of C2. It runs on a…

Yes, but Slack is slick, plaid, and even gorgeous.

Seriously, these days it seems most software like this is judged purely on its external styling and aesthetic beauty. You're right, Slack has no new features over IRC or any other decent chat clients in the past. But read any article that praises slack and if the slick UI (or whatever adjective is in style these days) isn't mentioned up front and center, I'd be surprised.

Of course the UI's 'slickness' and 'modernity' would be top discussion points for people writing such articles as they're usually not technical enough to argue the merits of tabs vs. spaces or braces vs. non-braces which the creators of such software usually argue about to the detriment of real issues.

Re: Mattermost: Open-source, on-premises, Slack alternative

#142

Once a month an “insert something tech-related here” company releases an open source slack clone. While I am grateful to all you guys, how much free time do you have to work on these clones instead of your main product? I've tried so far let's chat and rocketchat and I liked them. I will give a spin to mattermost and I am sure I will like it too. I think the one that matures first, will be a big hit because we need a…

Before you disparagingly call it a "clone" and "not their main project", consider that free products often go on to crush their expensive first-to-market predecessors.

The strategy of first seeking to monopolize the user-base, and then afterward heavily monetizing it is a very well proven long term strategy by now. The overnight success of Slack and some other SAAS companies may give some people the impression that this strategy is suddenly irrelevant. It may not be.

Re: Mattermost: Open-source, on-premises, Slack alternative

#143
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because almost certainly engineers will want to integrate an on-premises system into their existing system, and that will trigger the AGPL for all the systems that are network-connected to the AGPL system. Unless you are sure that your engineers will know to not try to integrate the AGPL software with any of your existing systems, I agree that people should just stay away.

It'll only trigger the AGPL if you make it available to outside users. Internal use doesn't count as redistribution for any of the *GPL licenses.

Well, the ``license.txt``available at the GitHub repository states that any enhancement made to the server must shared back with the community. So, even if you are using an enhanced version internally, you must redistribute it publicly.

Re: Mattermost: Open-source, on-premises, Slack alternative

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It'll only trigger the AGPL if you make it available to outside users. Internal use doesn't count as redistribution for any of the *GPL licenses.

Well, the ``license.txt``available at the GitHub repository states that any enhancement made to the server must shared back with the community. So, even if you are using an enhanced version internally, you must redistribute it publicly.

Still its not clear that file can compel someone to even reveal what they do internally. Its an empty promise.

Re: Mattermost: Open-source, on-premises, Slack alternative

#145
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So many slack alternatives are coming up because slack is really good. It's that simple.

...and because so few people apparently realise that's Slack's value is in the quality execution, which can be copied by a decent team (but takes a phenomenal team to beat).

Genuine question: what did/do they execute on so well? I've only read about them having a great launch strategy.

Re: Mattermost: Open-source, on-premises, Slack alternative

#146
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mattermost team here, We think choice is good, and open source reduces the cost of creating more choice.

I actually prefer todays web video to having to install RealPlayer, Quicktime, Windows Media Player, Flash player, Shockwave player just play video on the web. Choice is not always good.

Actually now you have the choice of web video utilizing codecs that came from all the companies producing the software you mentioned above, and the evolution from them to the capability we have today, be it codecs or browser support. the new openness of it created the choice you prefer now.

Re: Mattermost: Open-source, on-premises, Slack alternative

#147
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no harm in having loads of options - you just get a Darwinian survival of the fittest for which app works best. Competition is healthy. The thing that sucks is that as end users we end up having all our chats and identity fragmented over all these different silos - be they selfhosted ones or proprietary SaaS. There's no way I'll rely on MatterMost or any of the above unless I can access my existing communitie…

You mean XMPP federation? Nobody wants to implement that because companies like Slack, Atlassian, Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Apple, etc are interested in lock-in primarily.

I hope the open source community learned a lesson with Slack and other offerings. The trick is the user experience. Slack is a trivial piece of code to reproduce (not their business).

Re: Mattermost: Open-source, on-premises, Slack alternative

#148
post #52

> We’re a YC-backed indie video game company releasing an open source alternative to Slack. Don't want to troll you guys here, but if you're a video game company why are you spending so much time building a Slack clone? I was expecting some short of explanation in your blog post like "we did this because this serves as a core piece of our company for X reason and Slack didn't fit our use case for Y reason".

It may be a perfect match, given that Slack has been created by a game dev team too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slack_Technologies#Initial_fun...

It's rather funny how Stewart Butterfield keeps trying to build games, and ending up with social apps.

His first company, Ludicorp, tried to build an MMORPG called Game Neverending, which never launched, and they pivoted to create Flickr, apparently based on the same platform (which is why ".gne" URLs proliferated Flickr originally).

With Tiny Speck, he created Glitch, another MMORPG, which closed a little more than a year after launch. Tiny Speck then pivoted to launch Slack, based on a chat app they had built internally while developing their game.

Re: Mattermost: Open-source, on-premises, Slack alternative

#149
post #90
post #5

I don't really get why there is so many Slack alternatives coming up these days. On every post like this there is tons of comment linking to other Slack alternatives, it's not like this is gonna be _the_ Slack-alternative. Here is a non exhaustive list : RocketChat : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9624737 Let's Chat : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9040841 Friends : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=94…

I guess it's because it looks like a pretty easy application to build. 'Looks like' being key there.

https://scotch.io/courses/building-a-slack-clone-in-meteor-j...

Re: Mattermost: Open-source, on-premises, Slack alternative

#150
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no harm in having loads of options - you just get a Darwinian survival of the fittest for which app works best. Competition is healthy. The thing that sucks is that as end users we end up having all our chats and identity fragmented over all these different silos - be they selfhosted ones or proprietary SaaS. There's no way I'll rely on MatterMost or any of the above unless I can access my existing communitie…

You mean XMPP federation? Nobody wants to implement that because companies like Slack, Atlassian, Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Apple, etc are interested in lock-in primarily.

Lots of people -- in that list, even -- started with XMPP based systems. They all move away. At first, I also thought this was an open and shut case of interest in lock-in. Now, I'm not going to say that isn't true, but it's also worth considering that XMPP... just isn't that good.

Having recently started working on a chat client that was intended to speak first-and-foremost XMPP, I have to admit: XMPP is... it's decades out of date and missing a number of absolutely critical, central ideas that are essential to making stuff work. I can't honestly fault anyone who started with XMPP and then rapidly started looking to get off.

Examples:

- unique message IDs? Absent. XEPs kind of provide; but I can't tell you which of the three or for relevant ones are the most relevant (AMP IDs from XEP 0079? Stream Management from XEP 0198? Acking from XEP 0184? Something from Carbons or MAM in 0313 or 0280? You know, if you wanted some light reading...).

- multi device? Oh. My. God. It's bananas. The spec behavior is that whenever a client sends a message, the server is supposed to consider that one the most alive, and then route all future messages exclusively to that one. So you send a message on your phone? Yeah, your desktop is just going to silently stop receiving messages.

- there's a concept of "message carbons" to deal with this. This involves re-sending all your messages back to the server after you receive them, with special instructions to send them back again to your other clients. The amount of redundantly redundant XML involved is eyewatering.

Combine that multidevice behavior (messages can get randomly routed anywhere at any time) with the wild-west nature of message delivery acks, and you can see how ridiculously difficult this makes the basic idea of "all clients should see the same picture".

Overall, the XEP process, conceptually, is a great example of open extensibility. The trouble is, so much of this stuff is core to sane message delivery semantics that it really, practically speaking, causes huge problems when it's all considered "extensions". Stuff like message IDs fundamentally shouldn't be an extension because it's just too critical that all minimum-viable clients agree. You just can't build higher level stuff without that. XEPs are great. A community process for extensions should exist. It just needs to exist for extensions, not subsume the total set of realistic minimum viable features.

I want an open chat protocol.

I thought XMPP might be the one. Then I actually looked at it. Tried to write something with it.

XMPP is not prepared to be the one, in any sense at all except for legacy support. I have all the respect in the world for all the folks who put effort into trying to make an open chat standard, but... honestly, we need a stronger foundation than this.

(N.b. These complaints are a shameless repost from another not-very-old thread about chat where XMPP was also raised: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9718784 .)

I've since looked at matrix.org ... and I'm really impressed. The standard is completely reasonable. It's the first federated chat standard I've seen proposed that actually has loose timing systems that's both available during a partition and can reach consistency afterward (messages list their last-seen messages, and so act like vector clocks, an accepted good solution to problems in CAP territory). You could actually take two systems with clock skew and have them reach a single, reconciled view of the world, even after netsplits. And practically speaking... man, go look at their list of clients. Despite being a relatively young project, matrix has clients on every major platform -- as far as I can tell, this is better platform coverage than XMPP, and better feature parity within those clients since critical things like message IDs are actually baked into the spec. I really suggest giving matrix a look. There's a lot going right over there.

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