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A world without work

theatlantic.com

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Re: A world without work

#131

Post by Florin_Andrei »

abandonliberty wrote: post #126
Florin_Andrei wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As work becomes more and more abstract, probably fewer and fewer people will find satisfaction in it. Some will, but the majority will not. We're just not built for doing this sort of thing for extended periods of time. We've evolved operating in the real, physical world, and our reward mechanisms are fine tuned for it.

Our reward mechanisms are not tuned finely enough to prevent video games and porn from hijacking them :)

Sure, but even that is temporary. You can't play video games forever.

Re: A world without work

#132

Post by rayiner »

paulkon wrote: post #128
rayiner wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having kids is a great way to give yourself some perspective and curb existential angst.

Kids are great, but by my observation, the primary logical motivation to have them is so that one can make sense of their own existence. It's a never ending cycle to figure out what this life is about by giving birth to life which then again must solve the same question themselves. However, do we really understand this existential angst at its root? Or is this simply a never-ending passing of the torch? I'm not quest…

> However, do we really understand this existential angst at its root?

Children are a great reminder that understanding existence is irrelevant. Children don't contemplate their own existence, they simply experience and relish that existence. You can't be sure that you have any sort of purpose or destiny, but you can be sure of the ground beneath your feet and the sand between your toes. Children get that intuitively, and for a long time they can't approach life any other way.

Re: A world without work

#133

Post by gluggymug »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #124
gluggymug wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

29 is a good age to be thinking about this. I have an alternate philosophy that doesn't make you quit your job to find yourself. See if it resonates with you. You can't be too emotionally attached to your job. Jobs have value but they come and go. You change jobs throughout life. Some jobs that used to pay really well are now becoming extinct etc. Eventually you retire. My dad has been retired for ~15 years. My mum h…

"Essentially, you should perform your work like a machine." I agree with a lot of what you say, but I can't agree with that. Yes, if dull work was a necessary part of life then there's some sense in just getting through it, but I don't agree that it is. Take away people's need to work and you can free them up to do what they want to do instead. Your advice is pragmatic, and there is wisdom in what you say about takin…

Perhaps I phrased it poorly.

Is current work really that dull?

I prefer to change the term being "slave to wage" to "I worked for a living". But everyone has different circumstances financially. If you are truly stuck in a miserable position then moving to another job is fine by my philosophy.

The future of "no need to work" for everyone sounds pretty awesome. I hope it happens. I am actually living that way now. After a couple of decades of working and some big redundancy payouts, I have savings to fall back on.

Re: A world without work

#134

Post by EleventhSun »

rayiner wrote: post #132
paulkon wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kids are great, but by my observation, the primary logical motivation to have them is so that one can make sense of their own existence. It's a never ending cycle to figure out what this life is about by giving birth to life which then again must solve the same question themselves. However, do we really understand this existential angst at its root? Or is this simply a never-ending passing of the torch? I'm not quest…

> However, do we really understand this existential angst at its root? Children are a great reminder that understanding existence is irrelevant. Children don't contemplate their own existence, they simply experience and relish that existence. You can't be sure that you have any sort of purpose or destiny, but you can be sure of the ground beneath your feet and the sand between your toes. Children get that intuitively…

Speak for yourself, buddy. I contemplated my existence all the time, as a child.

Re: A world without work

#135

Post by ZenoArrow »

paulkon wrote: post #128
rayiner wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having kids is a great way to give yourself some perspective and curb existential angst.

Kids are great, but by my observation, the primary logical motivation to have them is so that one can make sense of their own existence. It's a never ending cycle to figure out what this life is about by giving birth to life which then again must solve the same question themselves. However, do we really understand this existential angst at its root? Or is this simply a never-ending passing of the torch? I'm not quest…

People have kids for all sorts of reasons, ranging from emotional to rational to accidental! Plus plenty of variation in parenting styles and the benefits thereof. I'm not sure there's much to say about a single purpose.

However, your ideas about the passing of the big questions to a new generation does strike a chord.

Speaking as a non-parent, the biggest mistake I see parents make is to live through their kids. I get that it's natural, partly because parents want the best for their kids and try to give them all they can, but in my opinion kids need role models more than almost anything else, and if their role models are martyrs is it any wonder that the cycle continues?

It takes wisdom to balance life as a parent with life as an adult, I'm sure it's not always easy, but I hope that if I'm ever a parent I'll remember to try, as it seems healthier for both kids and parents.

Re: A world without work

#136

Post by facetube »

tolmasky wrote: post #117
oliveira12345 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. Basic income would pay for basic needs, and let people devote "free time" to more personally-satisfacting-activities: open-source programming, studiyng new interesting fields, etc... The mere fact that in today's professional career there is little oportunity for a 40-50years to work on a completely-new-unexperienced-field is an clear example. There is a point in time after which a job converts from ilusion-and…

Basic income will probably result in even more antagonism towards immigrants. As Milton Friedman said, "It's just obvious you can't have free immigration and a welfare state". I feel immigration to the US is too restrictive as it is, let alone what it would become if it meant giving everyone a paycheck. You basically have these options: 1. Restrict immigration (perhaps you are OK with this, I am not. I feel immigrati…

FWIW, a lot of US public assistance programs (including TANF) already have minimum-length-of-residency and work credit requirements for people who aren't US citizens: http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/what-public-benefits-...

Re: A world without work

#137

Post by icanhackit »

rayiner wrote: post #110
nicholas73 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I felt the same way at your age and in many ways still do at 32. 29 wasn't that long ago, and it wasn't biological maturing that happened. I became a father and now have a tenth of the free time I had before. The perspective that changed is twofold: first is that a job does provide life (your kid's), and second is that life is LONG. If you don't get rich by 30, you can get rich by 40 and still have a long time to do…

Having kids is a great way to give yourself some perspective and curb existential angst.

Having kids is a great way to give yourself some perspective and curb existential angst.

This is going to be a touchy subject as people have children for many different reasons - I'll describe a few significant groups:

- Those who do it to pass on knowledge, teach kids to be inquisitive and enjoy making/learning. This kind of parent themselves love learning, and raising a child is a massive part of their life journey

- Those who figure it's the next logical progression in their life/relationship, who wind up so tired from the combination of work and raising a child/children that yes their existential angst has been effectively banished. Some may find perspective when they finally find the time to reflect. Most are ultimately happy that they had kids

- Those who seemingly have Stockholm syndrome, evangelizing the joys of having kids in one breath and telling their children to shut up in another. The kind who had kids because they're a status symbol, a Rubicon of the aspirational class

The first kind make the best parents. We shouldn't try to sell kids as a solution to life's problems - otherwise we'll just keep making the second and third kinds of parents with each generation.

Re: A world without work

#138

Post by ZenoArrow »

gluggymug wrote: post #133
ZenoArrow wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Essentially, you should perform your work like a machine." I agree with a lot of what you say, but I can't agree with that. Yes, if dull work was a necessary part of life then there's some sense in just getting through it, but I don't agree that it is. Take away people's need to work and you can free them up to do what they want to do instead. Your advice is pragmatic, and there is wisdom in what you say about takin…

Perhaps I phrased it poorly. Is current work really that dull? I prefer to change the term being "slave to wage" to "I worked for a living". But everyone has different circumstances financially. If you are truly stuck in a miserable position then moving to another job is fine by my philosophy. The future of "no need to work" for everyone sounds pretty awesome. I hope it happens. I am actually living that way now. Aft…

"Perhaps I phrased it poorly.

Is current work really that dull?"

I'm sure I could've given it a more generous reading, my apologies. Is current work really that dull? Certainly not for everybody. However, if it's best to switch off your emotional capacity to get through it then yes, perhaps the work is dull.

"The future of "no need to work" for everyone sounds pretty awesome. I hope it happens. I am actually living that way now. After a couple of decades of working and some big redundancy payouts, I have savings to fall back on."

Sounds good. What's the best part of living without paid work for you?

Re: A world without work

#139

Post by gluggymug »

abandonliberty wrote: post #125
gluggymug wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

29 is a good age to be thinking about this. I have an alternate philosophy that doesn't make you quit your job to find yourself. See if it resonates with you. You can't be too emotionally attached to your job. Jobs have value but they come and go. You change jobs throughout life. Some jobs that used to pay really well are now becoming extinct etc. Eventually you retire. My dad has been retired for ~15 years. My mum h…

That's quite enlightened and Buddhist, and certainly helps to cope with the unpleasant reality of work. We are still trading our time and lives for money working on things that don't resonate with our values. When fighting for survival we never questioned whether our actions fit with our values; there were no vegan cavemen. We are fortunate, but struggle with this new understanding.

If your job is completely misaligned with your values, I think making a job change is a good idea. Don't do something that isn't you.

Maybe it's my particularly uninteresting values but no job resonates that much. Even if it did, you eventually have to retire. Then you are going to really be depressed.

Better to not be so attached to the job and be retired happily. Or in my case get fired happily!

Free money and any job you like does sound good though.

Re: A world without work

#140

Post by eli_gottlieb »

methodover wrote: post #55

I really enjoyed reading this article. I've been thinking quite a bit about work recently. I'm just about to turn 29, and by all accounts I'm fairly successful: I graduated college with a worthless liberal arts degree just as the Great Recession was beginning. After an unsuccessful attempt at copywriting for a couple years, I managed to learn programming. A few years after that and I'm the leader of the engineering t…

While I broadly feel the same as you do about wage-labor, you're not going to be able to do anything positive for your situation in life if you're clinically depressed. Have you started seeing a therapist?

To emphasize: I'm not implying something's wrong with you. In fact, I sought therapy for work-related depression only ~4 years ago, and had the bad luck to find a therapist who told me, just after graduating university, that adult life just is careerism. That wasn't helping! But, again, unhappiness is a part of life, whereas clinical depression is a crippling illness that prevents you from being able to work on your situation or even experience your unhappiness as meaningful.

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