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A world without work

theatlantic.com

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Re: A world without work

#121

Post by Florin_Andrei »

methodover wrote: post #55

I really enjoyed reading this article. I've been thinking quite a bit about work recently. I'm just about to turn 29, and by all accounts I'm fairly successful: I graduated college with a worthless liberal arts degree just as the Great Recession was beginning. After an unsuccessful attempt at copywriting for a couple years, I managed to learn programming. A few years after that and I'm the leader of the engineering t…

As work becomes more and more abstract, probably fewer and fewer people will find satisfaction in it. Some will, but the majority will not. We're just not built for doing this sort of thing for extended periods of time. We've evolved operating in the real, physical world, and our reward mechanisms are fine tuned for it.

Re: A world without work

#122

Post by Florin_Andrei »

tolmasky wrote: post #117
oliveira12345 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. Basic income would pay for basic needs, and let people devote "free time" to more personally-satisfacting-activities: open-source programming, studiyng new interesting fields, etc... The mere fact that in today's professional career there is little oportunity for a 40-50years to work on a completely-new-unexperienced-field is an clear example. There is a point in time after which a job converts from ilusion-and…

Basic income will probably result in even more antagonism towards immigrants. As Milton Friedman said, "It's just obvious you can't have free immigration and a welfare state". I feel immigration to the US is too restrictive as it is, let alone what it would become if it meant giving everyone a paycheck. You basically have these options: 1. Restrict immigration (perhaps you are OK with this, I am not. I feel immigrati…

Good points there.

I feel this is a bit too early for basic income. That change will come to pass naturally when society will be able to continue to exist and function normally even if almost nobody will work. That would require some pretty hefty advancements in AI and robotics.

Basically, I don't see struggle-free basic income without the robots doing all the work for us.

Re: A world without work

#123

Post by aaron-lebo »

EliRivers wrote: post #98
daodedickinson wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop blaming work, which for thousands of years has been endurable and honorable for humans. Study philosophy seriously, and avoid philosophical paths that manifestly cause depression.

For thousands of years, work was something the peasants and the poor people did. An excellent trick pulled recently was to convince many of them that there was such a thing as a "work ethic" and that it was good and right and honourable.

It is good and right and honorable to not be a strain on others if you are capable of doing the work.

Just because some people have taken advantage of that to get others to work for them doesn't mean work or work ethic in and of itself is bad.

Re: A world without work

#124

Post by ZenoArrow »

gluggymug wrote: post #119
methodover wrote: post #55

I really enjoyed reading this article. I've been thinking quite a bit about work recently. I'm just about to turn 29, and by all accounts I'm fairly successful: I graduated college with a worthless liberal arts degree just as the Great Recession was beginning. After an unsuccessful attempt at copywriting for a couple years, I managed to learn programming. A few years after that and I'm the leader of the engineering t…

29 is a good age to be thinking about this. I have an alternate philosophy that doesn't make you quit your job to find yourself. See if it resonates with you. You can't be too emotionally attached to your job. Jobs have value but they come and go. You change jobs throughout life. Some jobs that used to pay really well are now becoming extinct etc. Eventually you retire. My dad has been retired for ~15 years. My mum h…

"Essentially, you should perform your work like a machine."

I agree with a lot of what you say, but I can't agree with that. Yes, if dull work was a necessary part of life then there's some sense in just getting through it, but I don't agree that it is. Take away people's need to work and you can free them up to do what they want to do instead.

Your advice is pragmatic, and there is wisdom in what you say about taking the rough with the smooth, but there is a better way of living than being slave to a wage, even if it's only part of the time. Why sell ourselves short when we don't have to?

Re: A world without work

#125

Post by abandonliberty »

gluggymug wrote: post #119
methodover wrote: post #55

I really enjoyed reading this article. I've been thinking quite a bit about work recently. I'm just about to turn 29, and by all accounts I'm fairly successful: I graduated college with a worthless liberal arts degree just as the Great Recession was beginning. After an unsuccessful attempt at copywriting for a couple years, I managed to learn programming. A few years after that and I'm the leader of the engineering t…

29 is a good age to be thinking about this. I have an alternate philosophy that doesn't make you quit your job to find yourself. See if it resonates with you. You can't be too emotionally attached to your job. Jobs have value but they come and go. You change jobs throughout life. Some jobs that used to pay really well are now becoming extinct etc. Eventually you retire. My dad has been retired for ~15 years. My mum h…

That's quite enlightened and Buddhist, and certainly helps to cope with the unpleasant reality of work.

We are still trading our time and lives for money working on things that don't resonate with our values.

When fighting for survival we never questioned whether our actions fit with our values; there were no vegan cavemen. We are fortunate, but struggle with this new understanding.

Re: A world without work

#126

Post by abandonliberty »

Florin_Andrei wrote: post #121
methodover wrote: post #55

I really enjoyed reading this article. I've been thinking quite a bit about work recently. I'm just about to turn 29, and by all accounts I'm fairly successful: I graduated college with a worthless liberal arts degree just as the Great Recession was beginning. After an unsuccessful attempt at copywriting for a couple years, I managed to learn programming. A few years after that and I'm the leader of the engineering t…

As work becomes more and more abstract, probably fewer and fewer people will find satisfaction in it. Some will, but the majority will not. We're just not built for doing this sort of thing for extended periods of time. We've evolved operating in the real, physical world, and our reward mechanisms are fine tuned for it.

Our reward mechanisms are not tuned finely enough to prevent video games and porn from hijacking them :)

Re: A world without work

#127

Post by djrobstep »

aaron-lebo wrote: post #88
methodover wrote: post #55

I really enjoyed reading this article. I've been thinking quite a bit about work recently. I'm just about to turn 29, and by all accounts I'm fairly successful: I graduated college with a worthless liberal arts degree just as the Great Recession was beginning. After an unsuccessful attempt at copywriting for a couple years, I managed to learn programming. A few years after that and I'm the leader of the engineering t…

You are in the top 0.0001% of history as far as what you have. Hell, anyone on this site is. Most people in the past or right now would kill to have what you are describing. Yeah, you are working for money, so use that to your advantage. What is it that you really want or want to do? Start putting money aside so you can spend time doing that at a later date. Use your free time and when possible work time to work on s…

I really dislike this line of reasoning. There are always people better off and worse off than any particular one of us. Does that mean we are all wrong to feel any emotion? Of course not. The human experience is subjective.

Re: A world without work

#128

Post by paulkon »

rayiner wrote: post #110
nicholas73 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I felt the same way at your age and in many ways still do at 32. 29 wasn't that long ago, and it wasn't biological maturing that happened. I became a father and now have a tenth of the free time I had before. The perspective that changed is twofold: first is that a job does provide life (your kid's), and second is that life is LONG. If you don't get rich by 30, you can get rich by 40 and still have a long time to do…

Having kids is a great way to give yourself some perspective and curb existential angst.

Kids are great, but by my observation, the primary logical motivation to have them is so that one can make sense of their own existence.

It's a never ending cycle to figure out what this life is about by giving birth to life which then again must solve the same question themselves.

However, do we really understand this existential angst at its root? Or is this simply a never-ending passing of the torch?

I'm not questioning how much joy children can bring to a couple's life but I've been thinking about the non-evolutionary purpose of having children for a while and I'm not sure how to think about it.

Re: A world without work

#129

Post by aaron-lebo »

djrobstep wrote: post #127
aaron-lebo wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are in the top 0.0001% of history as far as what you have. Hell, anyone on this site is. Most people in the past or right now would kill to have what you are describing. Yeah, you are working for money, so use that to your advantage. What is it that you really want or want to do? Start putting money aside so you can spend time doing that at a later date. Use your free time and when possible work time to work on s…

I really dislike this line of reasoning. There are always people better off and worse off than any particular one of us. Does that mean we are all wrong to feel any emotion? Of course not. The human experience is subjective.

Of course it isn't wrong to feel emotion. I'm the same age as the OP, I'm also well-off, I also get disillusioned and unsatisfied.

But a large part of that emotion is misplaced. You can change how you feel simply by changing your perspective. You can look at a situation like that and feel like you are doing unsatisfying work, or you can also realize the benefits that come from that and turn it into a positive. And based on what they are saying, there's a lot of good that can come out of it. Good that most people don't have any chance at. You've got to feel a little thankful or lucky to even have that opportunity.

Re: A world without work

#130

Post by ZenoArrow »

daodedickinson wrote: post #57
daodedickinson wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read Veale's The Creativity Myth. What you call "creativity" can be automated much like anything else. Emphasizing creativity would work for an extra couple of decades at most, so there's no sense in building, say, brand new educational institutions around it. Check out the N.Y. Times article announcing the creation of the Camp Fire Girls (co-invented by Gulick, a co-inventor of basketball) - there was a panic then a…

Edit since edit feature fails: Read Veale's The Creativity Myth. What you call "creativity" can be automated much like anything else. Emphasizing creativity would work for an extra couple of decades at most, so there's no sense in building, say, brand new educational institutions around it. Check out the N.Y. Times article announcing the creation of the Camp Fire Girls (co-invented by Gulick, a co-inventor of basketb…

Creativity can be automated? Yes, you could automate parts of it if you wanted.

However, you're missing a couple of points. Firstly, creativity is enjoyable. Not because of some grand need to push culture forward and/or keep people entertained, just because it's fun to create.

Secondly, you're implying that culture will move in a unified direction, or that we'll all consume the same culture. We won't. There's too much of it to take it all in, and there's no reason to suggest that all tastes will align. Culture will grow chaotically just like it always has, the main difference is that we'll have more time to explore it.

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