I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed • Hacker News Board

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#321

Post by squidbidness » Tue, Jun 23, 2015, 10:50 PM UTC

makeitsuckless wrote: post #267

kuschku wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The debate the politicians in my state (Schleswig-Holstein, a state in Germany) had about this was really interesting, sadly it’s in German. Essentially, it boils down to two issues: Morally, we all are descendants of immigrants, or at least most. Economically, most immigrants are willing to work hard. Combined with the fact that our society has a birth rate below replacement rate (1.3 vs. 2.1) we need immigrants jus…

How about the third, conveniently ignored issue: that there is a considerable number of immigrants that bring with them an ideology (also referred to as "religion" because it's founded on supernatural believes) that is hellbent on destroying the very fabric of the society they immigrate to?

There are fringe, exceptional cases where this is a legitimate fear, but in the general broad-brush case, it's largely a self-fulfilling fear, brought about by the way people are treated when they come to a society that believes this. If they are given no opportunities when they arrive, and are segregated off into culturally de-facto ghettos, resentment brews over generations. In the cases where more open immigration is abused, such as the 9/11 terrorists who came to the United States, it's throwing out the baby with the bathwater to question immigration as a whole, rather than focusing hard on how to mitigate the exceptional cases of abuse.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#322

Post by hartator » Tue, Jun 23, 2015, 10:50 PM UTC

chx wrote: post #292

diego_moita wrote: post #272

Disclaimer: I am a Canadian permanent resident. > I like it here. This is the real problem, you have a severe case of non-reciprocal love. In that case the answer is obvious: move over, find another love, come to Canada or go to Northern Europe. U.S. immigration is an American problem,since they are the ones loosing talent and entrepreneurial people. It is not an immigrant's problem, since they don't have the powers…

You know, I am a Canadian PR too and while nowhere near as bad as the US temporary worker situation, the transition from PR to citizen is not easy if you have the audacity to travel. And, thanks to this wonderful new bill, you can be stripped of your citizenship basically any time the government wants to without judicial oversight.

Waho, that's bad, do you have more details?

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#323

Post by pbhjpbhj » Tue, Jun 23, 2015, 10:51 PM UTC

tormeh wrote: post #285

makeitsuckless wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about the third, conveniently ignored issue: that there is a considerable number of immigrants that bring with them an ideology (also referred to as "religion" because it's founded on supernatural believes) that is hellbent on destroying the very fabric of the society they immigrate to?

Not really. Muslim immigrants are usually just socially conservative. It's their children that are radicalized in European society. It's a testament to the failure of current integration policies. The unpleasant fact is that proper integration costs money - they need to be taught the biggest official language and English, they need to be taught a profitable trade and they need to get up to speed on the domestic cultu…

>The unpleasant fact is that proper integration costs money //

For those selecting to immigrate why not put the onus on them to integrate too? Why should the onus be on the established population to adapt? [That's obviously not appropriate for some classes of migrant like refugees, but I'm sure that's clear.]

>The alternative is to create an underclass visibly different to the majority - that doesn't end well. //

Muslims in the UK often choose to be visibly different to set themselves apart from kafirs; they're not an underclass though. You don't have to wear a shalwar kameez and a big beard or wear a hijab to follow the Koran. [Non-abrogated verses do demand violent oppression of others though]. It's basically cultural AFAICT, predominantly British Islam appears to be about importing Middle-Eastern culture and traditions, like forced marriage, that had previously been forced out of the local culture at great length. Muslims in my city in the UK go "back home" to Pakistan or support the Indian cricket team or whatever, they're not interested in adopting the established UK culture but instead creating a different culture here. Islam is not just a religion it proscribes a legal system which by tradition Muslims are obliged to instigate where ever they are.

Cultures that demand other cultures to be subservient can't integrate in to a multicultural society, it doesn't work. In order to integrate they must change; for Islam that means it must become not-Islam, it needs to deny some of its central tenets to make it compatible with other cultures.

Thankfully most Muslims I meet seem to be not at all like the Mohammed [depicted in the Koran and Hadith] they suppose to try and emulate.

>the only way to make sure there's someone left to pay for tomorrow's pensions //

Pensions are basically a massive pyramid scheme; it's going to fail eventually. The only way it can continue is if there is no limit on availability of natural resources for the manufacture of new stuff on which Western Capitalism appears to depend.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#324

Post by pvaldes » Tue, Jun 23, 2015, 10:53 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #236

exelius wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only slightly related, but for as much as Americans consider ourselves inextricably linked with Europe, we're much more similar both economically and culturally to South America. The average American's life looks a lot more like that of an office worker in Colombia or Brazil than it does someone in Berlin or London. This is likely because South American countries developed using the USA as a model, but it's interesti…

Culturally the US is protestant leaning. Latam is culturally catholic. Latams see Spain as a cultural beacon, whereas the the U.S. now a beacon in its own right, used to have Britain and France as their cultural beacons --yes France was nominally catholic, but they culturally leaned protestant in many ways. They are more northern European than Mediterranean. Also, while in the U.S. the so called 'old boys net' helps…

> Relationships are paramount and make corruption endemic and inextricable.

Well, in honor of the harsh reality USA have also is own quota of this cake, supporting some very shady people in South America in the last decades, like Pinochito for example...

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#325

Post by hudibras » Tue, Jun 23, 2015, 10:54 PM UTC

nicolas_t wrote: post #52

I work for customers in the US as a software consultant (paid at New York rates) but because of the hassle and difficulties to get a visa there, I do not live there. This means that I get money from the US but I do not reinject it in the economy, I also do not pay taxes in the US. I'm a net loss for this country all because of the visa policies.

It's tough to say without knowing all the details, but even though you may be getting New York rates going into your pocket, the companies that are hiring you are not paying taxes into Social Security, unemployment, workers comp, etc.

So you're actually still cheaper for those employers than having an employee in the United States; ergo, you're undercutting American workers.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#326

Post by squidbidness » Tue, Jun 23, 2015, 10:55 PM UTC

talmand wrote: post #129

zerr wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One would think, countries like USA, Australia or NZ might be afraid of immigration because they know what they did to native inhabitants... Generally, think about the situation where all (most) countries abolish borders, not just NZ or other small country. Moving is the basic human right, and the sooner we realize the better for mankind, assuming the culture of the host country is respected. Of course the culture ne…

Why would one be afraid of immigrants because of past treatment of original natives when chances are the immigrants are descended from people who did similar things to the original natives of their homeland? As an easy example, I'm fairly certain the original natives of the southern portions of the North American continent weren't speaking Spanish when the conquistadors showed up. I would disagree that is is for the…

Guilt. Making a change towards better treatment of people from different places brings up the poor past treatment, which people don't like to take responsibility for.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#327

Post by blue11 » Tue, Jun 23, 2015, 10:57 PM UTC

chrisper wrote: post #231

chrisper wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am in the situation you are suggesting. People like the author and me are not surprised, but rather disappointed (and sad).

I should add, sad because it is very hard to build and plan a life where you do not know where you will be in 3 or 6 years. For example, why would you try to buy a house if you don't know what will happen? Because of all this I am probably considering to not even bother with H1B.

The GC application should follow the H1B immediately. Don't accept an offer from an employer that cannot promise you that they will do that. Either they don't know what they are doing or they can't imagine you still working there several years later.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#328

Post by School-Cotton » Tue, Jun 23, 2015, 10:57 PM UTC

diego_moita wrote: post #272

Disclaimer: I am a Canadian permanent resident. > I like it here. This is the real problem, you have a severe case of non-reciprocal love. In that case the answer is obvious: move over, find another love, come to Canada or go to Northern Europe. U.S. immigration is an American problem,since they are the ones loosing talent and entrepreneurial people. It is not an immigrant's problem, since they don't have the powers…

Claiming the "love" is unrequited rests on the assumption that policy is at least strongly correlated with the people's will.

As far as anyone can tell, this is simply not true. Hence, average American people can like someone without that acceptance being written into policy.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#329

Post by diogenescynic » Tue, Jun 23, 2015, 10:57 PM UTC

saalweachter wrote: post #195

kuschku wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The debate the politicians in my state (Schleswig-Holstein, a state in Germany) had about this was really interesting, sadly it’s in German. Essentially, it boils down to two issues: Morally, we all are descendants of immigrants, or at least most. Economically, most immigrants are willing to work hard. Combined with the fact that our society has a birth rate below replacement rate (1.3 vs. 2.1) we need immigrants jus…

Another frequently-cited benefit of opened borders is that -- for the most part -- current citizens own everything in this country, and stand to make a bit of cash if there's an influx of new faces looking to buy houses, used cars, rent rooms, etc etc etc.

Given that 50% of Americans have zero or a negative net worth, I think all it would do is further increase inequality.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#330

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Jun 23, 2015, 10:58 PM UTC

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #323

tormeh wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. Muslim immigrants are usually just socially conservative. It's their children that are radicalized in European society. It's a testament to the failure of current integration policies. The unpleasant fact is that proper integration costs money - they need to be taught the biggest official language and English, they need to be taught a profitable trade and they need to get up to speed on the domestic cultu…

>The unpleasant fact is that proper integration costs money // For those selecting to immigrate why not put the onus on them to integrate too? Why should the onus be on the established population to adapt? [That's obviously not appropriate for some classes of migrant like refugees, but I'm sure that's clear.] >The alternative is to create an underclass visibly different to the majority - that doesn't end well. // Mus…

> Pensions are basically a massive pyramid scheme; it's going to fail eventually. The only way it can continue is if there is no limit on availability of natural resources for the manufacture of new stuff on which Western Capitalism appears to depend.

Pensions don't require that. Unlimited aggregate output growth requires that (and, therefore, unlimited per capita consumption growth without proportional decreases in population requires that.)