I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed • Hacker News Board

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#101

Post by shas3 » Tue, Jun 23, 2015, 5:01 PM UTC

pekk wrote: post #97

shas3 wrote: post #68

The US legal immigration system is perfectly described by the adjective, Kafkaesque. In terms of the arbitrariness of bureaucracy, it has more in common with what I saw in the socialist days of India and what one reads in books by Solzhenitsyn and Kafka. The iniquities have been discussed repeatedly in popular press, with almost no changes wrought in the process. Many years ago (yes, 2011 was 4 years ago) Newsweek ra…

Which country recognizes a universal right to naturalize as a citizen of that country?

How is this question germane to my comment or OP? I am not advocating any universal right. Just bureaucratic efficiency.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#102

Post by Happydayz » Tue, Jun 23, 2015, 5:01 PM UTC

murbard2 wrote: post #30

Happydayz wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of domestic groups opposed to open borders for high-skilled immigrants. Doctors, nurses, and others within the medical profession spring first to mind, and they are incredibly powerful politically. Ditto lawyers or really any other trade that controls its own barrier to entry via the certification process. And let's not forget software engineers - just see what happens whenever H1-B comes up.

Doctors and Lawyers are already protected by the licensing requirements, why would they fear immigrants?

No, you're right. Lawyers are protected by their licensing requirements. However the medical profession does protect itself and is opposed to bringing in many foreign born nurses, medical staff, etc.

Lawyers have that nice shield that is the bar exam, but that is also de facto immigration since only ABA accredited schools qualify. So in one sense you're right, the legal profession does not need to lobby against high skilled immigration. However, the reason they don't need to isn't for any moral reason but rather because they can just lock out immigrants through non-legislative means.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#103

Post by vezzy-fnord » Tue, Jun 23, 2015, 5:02 PM UTC

crimsonalucard wrote: post #84

murbard2 wrote: post #12

I personally consider that opening borders is a moral imperative, but I understand why it is controversial. I understand that the arguments against "letting everyone in" have some merit, though I ultimately disagree with them. What is a real head scratcher to me is the US policy on highly-skilled immigrants. There are certainly some political constituencies in favor of those, but I can't think of anyone against, at l…

Moral imperatives do not always correlate with survival imperatives. I'm not going to say whether or not I believe in immigration, but there are two things I will say: 1. Arguments against immigration stem not from moral imperatives, but from survival instinct. 2. If we open up immigration, America as we know it will change dramatically, in either a good or bad way. I think what we have now is already pretty good, so…

Firstly, America as we know it has been changing dramatically and continuously since its inception. I don't see anyone mourning the loss of the Bourbon Democrats or tariff acts, but suffice to say they aren't here anymore.

Secondly, what are you referring to by "what we have now"? Immigration law in particular, or U.S. policy on a macro level?

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#104

Post by oberstein » Tue, Jun 23, 2015, 5:02 PM UTC

facetube wrote: post #74

murbard2 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that logic , you cannot have a welfare state without mandatory sterilization of the poor. Most will recoil in horror at this, and yet, the harm done by closed border is far greater (people are literally dying while eating dirt because they were born in the wrong country). But that's beside the point since I was specifically addressing highly skilled immigration.

When they make enough money, do you un-sterilize them?

It's called RISUG. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reversible_inhibition_of_sperm...

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#105

Post by mahranch » Tue, Jun 23, 2015, 5:03 PM UTC

mcguire wrote: post #35

Are there any countries where the immigration system is not "broken" in this way? I have seen some in the past with "entrepreneur" or "retirement" visas: you are allowed to stay in the country if you promise to spend a lot of money, but that doesn't seem optimal for this kind of case. I've also heard of places desperately seeking workers, but that also doesn't seem to fit the current American situation.

> Are there any countries where the immigration system is not "broken" in this way?

It's interesting because you'll often see people complaining about how immigrating to Japan is hard. It usually gets brought up when news about their declining population hits the front page. "Well maybe if they made it easier to immigrate they wouldn't have a problem!" is a common comment to see.

Only, that's wrong. Their immigration is pretty standard. It has nearly identical requirements as the U.S and Canada. In fact, it's actually easier to become a Japanese citizen than it is to become a U.S citizen. Japan allows immigration from more countries than the U.S.

Another thing is that if you're married or have a job in Japan, they'll let you stay with a green card indefinitely. No need to become a naturalized citizen. It's incredibly rare for them to "change their minds" and revoke a green card. It's practically unheard of unless you commit a crime of some sort. Even then, there's still a good chance they won't unless your crime is severe.

My point is that most countries have similar requirements for immigration. If you've only tried immigrating to a single country, you have nothing to compare too. Immigration isn't supposed to be easy and you should expect tedious and head banging bureaucracy.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#106

Post by zerr » Tue, Jun 23, 2015, 5:03 PM UTC

geebee wrote: post #79

murbard2 wrote: post #12

I personally consider that opening borders is a moral imperative, but I understand why it is controversial. I understand that the arguments against "letting everyone in" have some merit, though I ultimately disagree with them. What is a real head scratcher to me is the US policy on highly-skilled immigrants. There are certainly some political constituencies in favor of those, but I can't think of anyone against, at l…

Any chance you'd be willing to write a bit more about your support for open borders? In particular, I'm interested in knowing whether you think this is a situation where it would be both moral and beneficial, or if you feel that it is simply wrong to limit where people can live and work based on where they were born (or even where their grandparents were born) even if the overall effect on current citizens of some re…

One would think, countries like USA, Australia or NZ might be afraid of immigration because they know what they did to native inhabitants...

Generally, think about the situation where all (most) countries abolish borders, not just NZ or other small country. Moving is the basic human right, and the sooner we realize the better for mankind, assuming the culture of the host country is respected. Of course the culture needs adjustments to respect human rights as well.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#107

Post by Happydayz » Tue, Jun 23, 2015, 5:04 PM UTC

darkmighty wrote: post #39

kazinator wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Opening borders works for multicultural countries built on immigration. For countries that are based on a unique language, ethnicity and culture, it is damaging.

He's referring to america... and I have to disagree. What's so important about an ethnicity that it has to be kept at all costs? Culture is probably worth preserving, but often culture is simply "the way it's always been" -- I'd argue the opposite, bringing different cultures together, if done right, will promote creating new culture that make more sense for today's reality, and not some 19th century status quo. Crea…

So there is no value in a uniquely Norwegian culture? Or Korean? Or Japanese?

One of the side effects of totally open borders is that human culture might homogenize, with strong bias toward the developing world where birthrates are exceptionally high. I think Indian and Bangladeshi culture are both wonderful, however I do not think they are necessary worth more than Norwegian, Japanese, etc.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#108

Post by normand1 » Tue, Jun 23, 2015, 5:06 PM UTC

Should have just snuck across the border in Mexico. People who follow the law are treated like criminals and those who break it are treated like heroes in California.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#109

Post by nickbauman » Tue, Jun 23, 2015, 5:06 PM UTC

murbard2 wrote: post #12

I personally consider that opening borders is a moral imperative, but I understand why it is controversial. I understand that the arguments against "letting everyone in" have some merit, though I ultimately disagree with them. What is a real head scratcher to me is the US policy on highly-skilled immigrants. There are certainly some political constituencies in favor of those, but I can't think of anyone against, at l…

Using a lottery system for skilled workers tends to select from the world's wealthiest people, too. So if you think inequality is a problem now... On the other hand opening borders would create a stampede. Pretty sure that would cause a completely different set of social problems.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#110

Post by jfoutz » Tue, Jun 23, 2015, 5:06 PM UTC

murbard2 wrote: post #32

worklogin wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Immigration is broken. But you cannot have open borders and a welfare system. It is completely unsustainable.

By that logic , you cannot have a welfare state without mandatory sterilization of the poor. Most will recoil in horror at this, and yet, the harm done by closed border is far greater (people are literally dying while eating dirt because they were born in the wrong country). But that's beside the point since I was specifically addressing highly skilled immigration.

The federal budget comes primarily from personal and corporate income tax. Sure, there's a little bit from other sources like excise taxes, but those are a drop in the bucket.

Open borders means the US should make it trivial to get a tax id and work. Fundamentally, that's what people want to do anyway, work. Some people may get small handouts for food, or perhaps more expensive handouts for healthcare. The dominating factor by far is the infrastructure. good roads, reliable power, access to good food and clean water, contract enforcement. That stuff costs way way more than a $50 food stamp.

You'd be hard pressed to find an economist that thinks adding more people to the market makes the market worse. I understand the concerns about open borders, but making things so fabulously difficult is just blindingly stupid. If people want to come and work, it's literally better for everyone.