I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed • Hacker News Board

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#171

Post by zzalpha » Tue, Jun 23, 2015, 6:50 PM UTC

kazinator wrote: post #145

cousin_it wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> propagate itself on its own merits You're right that not all traditions are worth preserving, but Darwinism isn't the best way to choose which traditions are worth preserving. The problem is that ability to propagate does not imply merit. If you put a bad guy and a good guy in a room together, sometimes the bad guy just beats up the good guy, and you realize that you shouldn't have put them together. This is the sa…

Some people in a small, homogeneous country might feel hat their traditions are worth preserving. Theirs is the voice that matters. You can't hold a global referendum on that, because their votes would be vastly outnumbered by those who don't care or who want to trample on them and help themselves to their resources or whatever.

You can't hold a global referendum on that, because their votes would be vastly outnumbered by those who don't care or who want to trample on them and help themselves to their resources or whatever.

Eh, that's just cultural conservatism, the rallying cry of racists and skinheads the world over. Are you also afraid they might marry your women and corrupt your children?

It's really quite fascinating... Europe, for generations, colonized the rest of the world, imposing their own cultures on indigenous populations (and I say that as a Canadian... we spent 100 years trying to wipe out our own indigenous population).

Now that the tables are turning and Europeans are struggling with immigration into their own countries, violent xenophobia is springing up like a vile weed.

Ironic, really.

Now, that's not to say large, unintegrated (and note, I say unintegrated, not unassimilated... those are different things) immigrant populations aren't a challenge. They most definitely are. Any isolated population, particularly if they're disconnected from government, law enforcement, or the social safety net, are a difficult challenge (my own city struggles with pockets of unintegrated north african immigrant populations, for example). But it's a challenge xenophobic europeans created for themselves, by allowing these immigrant populations to remain isolated in the first place... ironically, in part specifically because of that very xenophobia.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#172

Post by zzalpha » Tue, Jun 23, 2015, 7:02 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #170

zzalpha wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't answer the question. The claim was "countries that are based on a unique language, ethnicity and culture, [immigration] is damaging." Again, I ask the question: damaging in what sense?

Just guessing here: instability, differing expectations, increased costs to everybody thru inefficiencies. It becomes hard to predict what folks will consider fair, adequate government services. Result is a lowering of standard of living for those in the dominant cultural group.

No, he actually answered the question elsewhere: cultural dilution. He's afraid these foreigners might somehow pollute or destroy his culture.

'course, when you get right down to it, it's just bald faced xenophobia, dressed up in nationalist rhetoric.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#173

Post by JoeAltmaier » Tue, Jun 23, 2015, 7:06 PM UTC

zzalpha wrote: post #172

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just guessing here: instability, differing expectations, increased costs to everybody thru inefficiencies. It becomes hard to predict what folks will consider fair, adequate government services. Result is a lowering of standard of living for those in the dominant cultural group.

No, he actually answered the question elsewhere: cultural dilution. He's afraid these foreigners might somehow pollute or destroy his culture. 'course, when you get right down to it, it's just bald faced xenophobia, dressed up in nationalist rhetoric.

That's harsh. What if I proposed to destroy a culture, say Judaism, by dilution? Would that be ok? Why is it not OK that this guy wants to preserve his?

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#174

Post by zzalpha » Tue, Jun 23, 2015, 7:13 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #173

zzalpha wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, he actually answered the question elsewhere: cultural dilution. He's afraid these foreigners might somehow pollute or destroy his culture. 'course, when you get right down to it, it's just bald faced xenophobia, dressed up in nationalist rhetoric.

That's harsh. What if I proposed to destroy a culture, say Judaism, by dilution? Would that be ok? Why is it not OK that this guy wants to preserve his?

Your example specifically contradicts your point.

Judaism is alive and well as a minority group in many many parts of the world. "Dilution" has never threatened the existence of Judaism.

The one thing that did was actual genocide, as a result of racism and xenophobia because of fear that the Jews, the minority group, were destroying German culture. Go figure.

But a few immigrants? I think Judaism, or really any culture, is stronger than that.

Another interesting example is indigenous populations in Canada, Australia, and the US. Those cultures have remained strong with the exception of those where active attempts to extinguish them have occurred. The Canadian residential school system is a disgusting, shameful example of the latter.

Frankly, I'd be very interested to see an example where simple "dilution" has actually led to the destruction of a culture. I can't think of one.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#175

Post by JoeAltmaier » Tue, Jun 23, 2015, 7:23 PM UTC

zzalpha wrote: post #174

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's harsh. What if I proposed to destroy a culture, say Judaism, by dilution? Would that be ok? Why is it not OK that this guy wants to preserve his?

Your example specifically contradicts your point. Judaism is alive and well as a minority group in many many parts of the world. "Dilution" has never threatened the existence of Judaism. The one thing that did was actual genocide , as a result of racism and xenophobia because of fear that the Jews, the minority group, were destroying German culture. Go figure. But a few immigrants? I think Judaism, or really any cult…

I like that idea, that dilution strengthens rather that weakens. Comes down to what's really important to a culture, and what's incidental. And fear of change. A much healthier attitude than 'resist change at any cost'.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#176

Post by dbrower » Tue, Jun 23, 2015, 7:25 PM UTC

normand1 wrote: post #108

Should have just snuck across the border in Mexico. People who follow the law are treated like criminals and those who break it are treated like heroes in California.

Not many of those have professional careers in STEM, law or medicine, the "highly qualified" potential immigrants in question.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#177

Post by toolsadmin » Tue, Jun 23, 2015, 7:26 PM UTC

It would actually be a great experiment to create a new libertarian nation which could let in everybody who is willing to contribute (work/business experience/bank account statement as proof) and see how that turns out. Something like a new US/Singapore started from a fresh slate.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#178

Post by bradleyjg » Tue, Jun 23, 2015, 7:28 PM UTC

garethsprice wrote: post #120

worklogin wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Immigration is broken. But you cannot have open borders and a welfare system. It is completely unsustainable.

When going through the US immigration system, as part of the green card application you need to specify a sponsor who will be responsible for you financially if you hit hardship. As an immigrant, you do not get welfare in the US. Source: US immigrant, did the paperwork.

I've never, ever heard of any Federal, State, or local governmental agency suing a sponsor to enforce an affidavit of support.

I'd be interested in knowing if anyone else has.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#179

Post by danielweber » Tue, Jun 23, 2015, 7:33 PM UTC

Nadya wrote: post #139

bruceb wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Europe it is a cultural issue also. There is a reason even Canada has Canadian content laws to protect from the onslaught of American music. It is not unreasonable for people to want to preserve culture.

>It is not unreasonable for people to want to preserve culture. It has sentimental and historical value, but I don't think it's particularly important. We can argue cultural identity, but that's only important so long as there are various cultures. In a monoculture world, the idea of cultural identity would be a lost concept. Cultural anthropology, which while highly interesting and informative of human relations, is…

The reason people want to move to the US is the US's culture. The people share a wide agreement for rule of law, want to resolve issues through the political process, can usually be shamed into supporting freedom of speech, and don't want to kill their neighbors for having the wrong religion.

It's not something magical about the soil that makes people want to move to the US. It's the culture. The more people that can use it, the better, but add too many new people too fast and it suddenly stops working.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#180

Post by chejazi » Tue, Jun 23, 2015, 7:34 PM UTC

toolsadmin wrote: post #177

It would actually be a great experiment to create a new libertarian nation which could let in everybody who is willing to contribute (work/business experience/bank account statement as proof) and see how that turns out. Something like a new US/Singapore started from a fresh slate.

To take this suggestion a step further, it would be great if this new nation was run as a Futarchy [1]. The basic idea is we use prediction markets to determine if certain policies would raise GDP, and those that do become law. Projects like Augur [2] are trying to make ubiquitous prediction markets possible by relying on Blockchain-like decentralization.

[1] http://mason.gmu.edu/~rhanson/futarchy.html [2] http://www.augur.net/