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Going undercover as a sex worker

aljazeera.com

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Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#141

Post by tptacek »

boothead wrote: post #140
tptacek wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we not pretend that a thread started by a hateful comment about locking an entire culture out of Europe is a good venue for a discussion about religion? Actually: the whole of HN is a bad venue for that discussion.

The thing is that I'm genuinely interested in how people of certain groups regard themselves. I follow both of those individuals on twitter and they seem to an outsider to be talking sense. I would however like to know the opinion of people who are Muslim before I decide that though. I agree that HN isn't the forum for this, but surely the best place to rebut such thinking is when it arises? You can hopefully see fro…

This isn't the time or the place.

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#142

Post by tptacek »

ameen wrote: post #40
logical42 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am I the only one puzzled by this comment?

You shouldn't be. I'm a Muslim and I've dealt with numerous such individuals painting Muslims as backward and illiterate. Muslims are the scapegoat of this generation, as the Jews, Blacks were before them. Their entire worldview is constructed of an us vs. them ideology rather than understanding that we're fundamentally the same regardless of our ethnicity/faiths/inclinations/etc.

I promise you that most of us, regardless of our faith (on HN, that will mostly be Pastafarianism), are embarrassed by bigoted comments like those.

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#143

Post by alphapapa »

tptacek wrote: post #135
alphapapa wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are being deceptive. Islam explicitly commands its followers to deceive others. Compare the Islamic State to Jews. Compare the Islamic State to blacks. There is no such comparison. This "scapegoat" victim card is a lie. Jews are not decapitating and immolating. Blacks are not decapitating and immolating. Yet Muslims from around the world are leaving their homes to join the Islamic State in their unspeakable evil,…

For those playing along at home, the "flag" button appears if you click on the timestamp on the above comment. When you see bigoted trolls on HN, don't have a conversation with them, just flag them off the site.

Typical. Nothing I said was untrue, nor even an opinion. They're all facts. Instead of reasoning with me and proving me wrong, you reach for the "bigot" card and refuse to have a conversation. That is being a troll.

No big surprise, though. Much easier to click a button and silence those who disagree with you than write a reasonable counter-argument. Well, at least the truth is out there for those who want to find it.

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#144

Post by alphapapa »

conanbatt wrote: post #139
alphapapa wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Global citizenship requires global government which comes with its own set of problems. What if the majority favored a certain behavior, such as this one? Then it would be globally legal. Maybe it's not globally favored now--that doesn't mean it will always be this way. Compartmentalization is better than globalization. Humans are fallible and often evil. That is not going to change. The best thing to do is compartme…

It doesn't work if there is no free movement from one "compartiment" to another. Im not saying the whole world should be the same, as far as we know we live in a bubble as much as NK does. But I cant go in there freely and people there definitely can't go out. The guarantee of being able to flee would have helped a lot of people in all the humanitarian crisis of the past, and all those current. In these days, having…

I'm not sure what you mean. Don't a lot of nations already receive refugees and those seeking asylum?

How could anyone make a guarantee of being able to "go in" and get someone out without infringing upon other nations' sovereignty?

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#145

Post by jbrown »

belorn wrote: post #29

When reading works like this one I tend to find three stories being merged into one. It focuses on slavery where most of the evil aspects of humans tend to come out, as in order to reduce a human person into something that can be traded, everything that gives that person a social context must be torn down. This is where the "break down" period comes from and it's a common theme in everything from the African slave tr…

I really like your story breakdown here. Those are three pretty clear contributors to the overall forced sex trade story. But I feel like there is one more story that is much less obvious. The three stories you identify reside on the supply side of the issue. On the demand side I feel there is a story about how our social expectations of monogamy contribute to the demand for prostitution. How men in sexless monogamous relationships are forced to go underground to get a basic human need met. How even when a marriage isn't sexless men still may feel the need to fulfill unsatisfied desires. They can't do this openly and honestly because monogamy won't let them. I can't help but feel that if monogamy was not the expectation, and violations of it were not perceived as a deplorable offense, sex would be rendered a much less scarce resource and the demand for sex slavery would be significantly reduced.

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#146

Post by alphapapa »

boothead wrote: post #133
alphapapa wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's have a simple quiz: There is a certain group of people in a certain part of the world today that are kidnapping, raping, enslaving, decapitating, immolating, and otherwise mutilating and murdering innocent people. They are attracting followers from around the world. Question: this group is universally comprised of members of which religion? Question: this group has explicitly declared the rest of the world to b…

Actually it's more like a small subset of Group A intends to kill us all (highly doubtful that they actually have the capability to actually kill us all). Group B is using the undeniable fact that some factions of Group A intend us harm to claim that all of Group A is responsible for all the the worlds evils. (The deleted post claimed that Islam was responsible for all the human trafficking in the world for example).…

First, whenever I see someone intentionally all-capsing and misspelling with "TEH THIS" and "TEH THAT", to me it reeks of childish ridicule. That does not lend the parody any credibility. Satire is one thing, but meme-trolling is another.

I don't think anyone is claiming that Group A actually can kill everyone they oppose. The problem is that they want to, and that they are trying to, and that before all is said and done, they will have done so to many innocent people.

Also, you are guilty of what you accuse Group B of being guilty of. I don't see anyone in Group B claiming that all of Group A is responsible for "all of the world's evils." If the OP made that claim, then I don't consider him part of Group B. Put him in his own, grossly exaggerating group.

No, the Group B I'm talking about is the one simply pointing out the explicit goals and actions of Group A, and its association with a certain religion. The Group B I'm talking about does not claim that all members of that religion are members of Group A.

All this "group this" and "group that" is getting a bit tiresome, but on the other hand, I think it's very important to speak precisely when dealing with issues like this. Once you begin lumping people together, generalizing and stereotyping, meaningful communication breaks down, and fighting starts. And fighting is the problem we're trying to solve here.

I'm not familiar with Britain First, so I don't know why you call them despicable. But I have read about Muslim gangs which have been getting away with child sex slavery in UK cities since at least 1988. This is documented in major UK and international newspapers. I wish you would also call out those groups as despicable. Note: I didn't say that all Muslims are despicable. Anyone doing those things to children is despicable, regardless of their religion.

I don't know what the OP said, since it's hidden. But I would caution you against playing the "bigotry", "narrow-minded", and "hatred" cards. They are too easily used by one side to silence discussion of apparently unpopular opinions. There are bigots on both sides of the issue, but not everyone on one side of it is.

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#147

Post by autokad »

belorn wrote: post #29

When reading works like this one I tend to find three stories being merged into one. It focuses on slavery where most of the evil aspects of humans tend to come out, as in order to reduce a human person into something that can be traded, everything that gives that person a social context must be torn down. This is where the "break down" period comes from and it's a common theme in everything from the African slave tr…

I disagree with your last assessment. men who need to take terrible jobs are often disposable cogs, but when women have to do it they are victims, a call to action is needed, etc.

I had spoken to several women who entered 'the trade'. they got money for flight,plastic surgery,room, and board. because of that, a lot of their money is kept until they 'finish their contract' and go back to their home country. human slavery does happen, but its not the default case. and while its true people are 'exploited' due to not knowing all their options, etc, but thats no different than what happens in other work environments. think: why do employers often forbid talking about pay?

the human trafficking narrative emerges from the idea that when it comes to prostitution, many were starting to realize how senseless outlawing it really was, and that many of the fear claims associated with it were inaccurate. so they changed the topic from prostitution to human trafficking.

as research has been finding out, the negative feelings associated with 'whores' & 'sluts' is most often propagated by wealthy women trying to protect their status.

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#148

Post by boothead »

alphapapa wrote: post #146
boothead wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually it's more like a small subset of Group A intends to kill us all (highly doubtful that they actually have the capability to actually kill us all). Group B is using the undeniable fact that some factions of Group A intend us harm to claim that all of Group A is responsible for all the the worlds evils. (The deleted post claimed that Islam was responsible for all the human trafficking in the world for example).…

First, whenever I see someone intentionally all-capsing and misspelling with "TEH THIS" and "TEH THAT", to me it reeks of childish ridicule. That does not lend the parody any credibility. Satire is one thing, but meme-trolling is another. I don't think anyone is claiming that Group A actually can kill everyone they oppose. The problem is that they want to, and that they are trying to, and that before all is said and…

You're right, my meme-trolling was a bit childish. However I have read some of Britain First's facebook pages and the comments there are hateful, vitriolic and most of the time barely literate.

I actually agree with most of what you said here. I believe that Islam does have some serious structural problems, along with many other religions. Muslim friends say that indeed the Quran is pretty transparently calling for non-muslim's death, and it seems to be seized upon readily as the raison d'être for many of these terrible groups.

As for the asian sex grooming, this is exactly this kind of thing that far right groups jump on. Suddenly it's muslim grooming gangs vs a group of men abusing children. Don't forget that within the Catholic church there has also been widespread abuse that's been covered up by the church. Somehow there isn't a pervasive implication that being Catholic means that you're more likely to be a child abuser. In case there was any doubt, yes grooming children for sex slavery is more despicable than whipping up hatred for an entire religion based on said abuse.

I believe the way to counter "lumping people together, generalizing and stereotyping" or othering is precisely to point out the flaws in logic and call it bigotry and hatred when you see it.

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#149

Post by nostrebored »

autokad wrote: post #147
belorn wrote: post #29

When reading works like this one I tend to find three stories being merged into one. It focuses on slavery where most of the evil aspects of humans tend to come out, as in order to reduce a human person into something that can be traded, everything that gives that person a social context must be torn down. This is where the "break down" period comes from and it's a common theme in everything from the African slave tr…

I disagree with your last assessment. men who need to take terrible jobs are often disposable cogs, but when women have to do it they are victims, a call to action is needed, etc. I had spoken to several women who entered 'the trade'. they got money for flight,plastic surgery,room, and board. because of that, a lot of their money is kept until they 'finish their contract' and go back to their home country. human slav…

How senseless outlawing prostitution is? That's absurd. Look at the efficacy of the Nordic model. Prostitution is coerced sex in which a woman loses her autonomy, and in the case of desperation, her ability to say yes or no to potential 'clients'.

It's a very clear objectification in which not only is the work stigmatized, it's also not productive for the woman -- working in a coal mine is valuable job experience that sets you up to be able to do other manual labor jobs. You have references, contacts, etc. Prostitution does not afford you the same ability.

Men who take terrible jobs are disposable cogs? Is that why these jobs have labor unions, rights, and transferable skills? If you want to talk about disposable, talk about the women who are disappeared after their usefulness as a prostitute is up. Talk about the women who are in their late 20's with no work skills, who are ashamed to be around their friends or family. Talk about the women who enter the sex trade and their drastically increased rates of drug abuse and suicide.

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#150

Post by TazeTSchnitzel »

nostrebored wrote: post #149
autokad wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with your last assessment. men who need to take terrible jobs are often disposable cogs, but when women have to do it they are victims, a call to action is needed, etc. I had spoken to several women who entered 'the trade'. they got money for flight,plastic surgery,room, and board. because of that, a lot of their money is kept until they 'finish their contract' and go back to their home country. human slav…

How senseless outlawing prostitution is? That's absurd. Look at the efficacy of the Nordic model. Prostitution is coerced sex in which a woman loses her autonomy, and in the case of desperation, her ability to say yes or no to potential 'clients'. It's a very clear objectification in which not only is the work stigmatized, it's also not productive for the woman -- working in a coal mine is valuable job experience tha…

> Look at the efficacy of the Nordic model.

The Nordic model is less efficient than decriminalisation. It drives sex workers underground, giving them less protection.

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