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Going undercover as a sex worker

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Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#81

Post by icebraining »

laichzeit0 wrote: post #68
minthd wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While i'm not sure whether legalization or the Swedish approach works best(criminalization of purchase), but if we want to prevent trafficking, maybe it's possible to use some sort of lie detector(standard, fmri, P300), etc - and ask girls whether they work for themselves, or are forced , or trafficked - and only let girls who work for themselves work in legal brothels ? It won't be perfect, but maybe it can reduce t…

> EDIT: please down just downvote, explain what's wrong with my line of reasoning ? Nothing wrong with your reasoning, many people on HN stupidly enough think that the downvote button is for when you disagree with a comment.

Yeah, people like HN's founder, pg.

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#82

Post by vacri »

laichzeit0 wrote: post #68
minthd wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While i'm not sure whether legalization or the Swedish approach works best(criminalization of purchase), but if we want to prevent trafficking, maybe it's possible to use some sort of lie detector(standard, fmri, P300), etc - and ask girls whether they work for themselves, or are forced , or trafficked - and only let girls who work for themselves work in legal brothels ? It won't be perfect, but maybe it can reduce t…

> EDIT: please down just downvote, explain what's wrong with my line of reasoning ? Nothing wrong with your reasoning, many people on HN stupidly enough think that the downvote button is for when you disagree with a comment.

Downvoting for disagreement has been explicitly stated as a proper use of the downvote button by the site founder.

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#83

Post by digi_owl »

127 wrote: post #47
chronial wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, it is not true. In germany prostitution was legalized a few years ago and what mostly happened was a massive increase in it. The situation of prostitutes barely improved and human trafficking went up. But you have to keep in mind that that is also the effect of only one country doing it. What would happen if the whole EU legalized prostitution is a different question.

Seems to me that the real issue is pimping and how difficult it is to control. http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/human-traffickin... The women go there knowing that they will trade sex for money. What they do not know is how difficult and exploitative the work is.

The German system seems odd to say the least.

They have legalized the activity, but they seems to not want to get involved with the operational rules.

To borrow the drug comparison from further up, this would be like legalizing hard drugs but not putting down any ground rules for labeling or certification of content.

Consider alcohol. Most places it is legal to sell, but there are still regulations in place, and hopefully policed, detailing when and to whom it can be sold.

When people talk about legalizing drugs, they likely envision a similar system of regulations surrounding it.

Similarly regulations have to be put in place regarding working conditions etc for prostitutes as part of the legalization process.

Removing the sex aspect and the article reminds me of some of the shit the construction business has with exploiting foreign workers.

I recall reading about people living 6 to the room in what was supposed to be a single occupancy apartment etc.

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#84

Post by fit2rule »

belorn wrote: post #29

When reading works like this one I tend to find three stories being merged into one. It focuses on slavery where most of the evil aspects of humans tend to come out, as in order to reduce a human person into something that can be traded, everything that gives that person a social context must be torn down. This is where the "break down" period comes from and it's a common theme in everything from the African slave tr…

>social economics shared by everyone else.

Well, this is about social economics in environments where things are decidedly not shared by anyone else, because ruling hierarchies and structures preclude civil rights, duties, and responsibilities. In a place where every single person in your village knows exactly what is going on, what sort of civil duty outside the village can thrive? Alas, for us rich Westerners, it may seem obvious: you have to take responsibility for your own life, and get the hell out of dodge if there is no work, but indeed every single human being alive has to work and feed themselves.

Trouble is, those fore-mentioned "shared social economics". Family life in remote villages can be dire, dire circumstances. Who is doing the selling in these transactions? Totalitarianism starts in the kitchen. Everyone eats, those who provide food and a place to eat it rule the roost. It seems every family needs its kitchen, and alas human slavery is abject cannibalism.

I would support a special kind of "Get out of Dodge" pass for the poor, personally. It seems a lot of kids could benefit from a full tank of gas and a boarding pass.

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#85

Post by minthd »

roel_v wrote: post #70
minthd wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While i'm not sure whether legalization or the Swedish approach works best(criminalization of purchase), but if we want to prevent trafficking, maybe it's possible to use some sort of lie detector(standard, fmri, P300), etc - and ask girls whether they work for themselves, or are forced , or trafficked - and only let girls who work for themselves work in legal brothels ? It won't be perfect, but maybe it can reduce t…

Lie detectors are nonsense. It's dangerous to promote their use. The US is the only Western country where it's routinely used.

While regular polygraphs are not reliable, I think usage for P300(i.e. brain fingerprinting) is more reliable, and even used in some courts.

for some numbers ,see[1]- "With both P300 and P300-MERMER, error rate was 0 %: determinations were 100 % accurate, no false negatives or false positives; also no indeterminates. Countermeasures had no effect. Median statistical confidence for determinations was 99.9 % with P300-MERMER and 99.6 % with P300"

So maybe this could be a good starting point for something useful for trafficking prevention ?

[1]http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11571-012-9230-0

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#86

Post by belorn »

Ygg2 wrote: post #63
hedgew wrote: post #2

Much like with drugs, the best way to reduce human trafficking and abusive prostitution would be to fully legalize and regulate sex work. In countries where prostitution is accepted and legal, it's safer for both the sex workers and the customers, with less risk of disease and abuse. Sex workers are treated humanely and not condemned. Society in general benefits too, through properly paid taxes, lower crime rates, an…

That wasn't the case with Germany. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Germany It seems to reduce the violence against workers, but increases human trafficking, because Germany now acts as a safe haven for traffickers. Maybe trafficking would disappear, if all societies made prostitution illegal and not a looked down profession, but I somehow doubt it[1]. So if your goal is to reduce human trafficking, it m…

Human trafficking seems by evidence to use prostitution as the way to generate money out of slaves, and anyone that wish to legalize sex work should also have a plan to address trafficking. I don't know the laws in Germany, but banks has a responsibility to combat money laundering so why not require brothels to implement some industry standards to counter trafficking? Signs of trafficking should then be followed up by police and slavers should be stopped and sentenced by the courts.

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#87

Post by reddytowns »

violentvinyl wrote: post #57
hedgew wrote: post #2

Much like with drugs, the best way to reduce human trafficking and abusive prostitution would be to fully legalize and regulate sex work. In countries where prostitution is accepted and legal, it's safer for both the sex workers and the customers, with less risk of disease and abuse. Sex workers are treated humanely and not condemned. Society in general benefits too, through properly paid taxes, lower crime rates, an…

The problem I have with this logic, is that I suspect with legalization/regulation, supply increases to meet or exceed demand, and drives prices down. This isn't a tremendous economic problem with drugs, because it should be relatively straightforward to ramp up production (and employment and tax revenue increases with it). With prostitution however, trying to increase the supply and driving down costs creates proble…

If people quit, then supply goes down. If it goes down, the price would rise until more people willingly take up the job again.

A decrease of price isn't going to cause more women to be trafficked. Instead, the opposite would happen because there is less money to be made.

I suspect whats happening here is that its easier to bring women over, willing or not because before, this kind of work was illegal, so if caught they'd just send them back.

This whole sex slavery thing seems like hyperbole to me, though. If you've ever been to a third world country, you'd see that prostitution is rampant, even in countries where its technically illegal. There really isn't any shortage of girls, so I suspect they wouldn't have any trouble finding prostitutes willing to go to somewhere they could make more money, that they'd need to kidnap someone and force them into it.

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#88

Post by icebraining »

ishener wrote: post #77
rbanffy wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any evidence to support your claim?

for example: http://digitalcommons.law.uga.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?articl...

That paper argues that a lack of compliance with Islamic law promotes human trafficking. I also don't see where it shows that trafficking in Europe is mainly caused by Muslims. How exactly do you see it supporting your case that Islam is the problem?

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#89

Post by rayiner »

danparsonson wrote: post #44
antris wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's the difference in your man vs. woman scenario - someone working in a coal mine may not feel like they have much choice but as you say they are agreeing to the work. Of course this is not to say that some men aren't likewise tricked or forced into such jobs but they too are victims. They pull the same tricks on men too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6yoBcEXwmQ#t=3m58s

Indeed; another example would be construction workers in Dubai - I seem to remember an article linked on here a few years ago about that.

Construction workers in Dubai is a great analogy to "voluntary" sex work.
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