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Why is it taking longer and longer to fill open jobs?

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Re: Why is it taking longer and longer to fill open jobs?

#151

Post by logicallee »

JamesBarney wrote: post #137
GreenPlastic wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough, but the information is publicly available on glassdoor. A couple reasons why I didn't list comp: 1. I didn't want to get candidates purely motivated by the high cash comp in the area. 2. Cash comp isn't core to how the company markets itself to employees and its culture. The company prefers to sell itself on being an employee friendly place to work. Like the article hypothesizes, I thought we'd get 50-10…

This is how I see the problem. Here are some assumptions. 1. You're ideal ios dev is working. The unemeployment rate among good ios devs is 0%. 2. He is probably getting paid above market wage. 3. He doesn't have a lot of time to research positions. 4. Most job openings are shitty because shitty job openings take longer to fill than good ones(or never get filled). 5. Your ideal ios dev doesn't have time to look up gl…

it's interesting that you state in point 2 that the dev is "probably getting paid above market wage" - because normally, if someone is PROBABLY getting paid X then X is not above market rate: x is market rate. (Another way to state 'market rate' is 'is probably getting paid x').

It would be like saying that listing a used iPhone on eBay will probably fetch more than its market price on eBay. It kind of doesn't make any sense at all.

However, it certainly can make sense if you define "market rate" more broadly than the amount that ideal devs are themselves earning. If you define market rate as the rate for all devs, then the ideal dev may be making more. So what this really means is that ideal candidates have a much higher market rate than the general market rate.

If this is the case, then advertising that much-higher market rate will very possibly flood the advertiser with applications from average devs (the broader market).

But if this segmentation isn't what you mean, then it's very hard to interpret your point 2, and I would like you to expand on it.

Re: Why is it taking longer and longer to fill open jobs?

#152

Post by Animats »

Here's a famous recruiting ad for "Super programmers" from Autodesk, in 1986.[1] It includes two things you seldom see today. First, there's no list of narrow technical skills:

"Relevant experience is nice, but if you're as good a person as we want, you'll be able to pick it up in a week or two."

And finally:

"We'll pay you more than anybody else in the industry."

That worked. Autodesk ended up owning the CAD industry and the animation industry.

If your company is complaining that it can't find programmers, try that.

[1] https://www.fourmilab.ch/autofile/www/chapter2_43.html

Re: Why is it taking longer and longer to fill open jobs?

#153

Post by logicallee »

reagency wrote: post #139
aerique wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, I wouldn't consider a job posting that doesn't mention salary seriously either. It reeks too much of a job that wants to take advantage of you while paying peanuts.

Almost no job postings mention salary, and most jobs are filled. Certainly the hundreds of thousands of bigco job ads don't post salaries, and startups don't either. Government does.

you leave out a very important segment of the job market, which is recruiters - who know salary ranges (part of the information they receive) and can match them to salary expectations before proceeding.

Re: Why is it taking longer and longer to fill open jobs?

#154

Post by spacko »

analog31 wrote: post #128
spacko wrote: post #88

Maybe HR tends to complicate the process to expand its power and justify its existence. There is this "law" that proclaims this is what happens in bureaucratic organisations - hierarchies tend to be grown for that purpose.

Parkinson's Law -- an amusing read, even if quaint. The same book also gave rise to the contemporary term "bikeshedding."

Parkinson's Law states that work is expanded to fill the available time. The law I refer to is that the time itself with work to be filled is expanded - for the purpose of requiring more human and non-human resources - which again requires expanding the hierarchy - which expands the power of those who cause this process (as the newly hired people will be added below those "managers").

Re: Why is it taking longer and longer to fill open jobs?

#155

Post by analog31 »

spacko wrote: post #154
analog31 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parkinson's Law -- an amusing read, even if quaint. The same book also gave rise to the contemporary term "bikeshedding."

Parkinson's Law states that work is expanded to fill the available time. The law I refer to is that the time itself with work to be filled is expanded - for the purpose of requiring more human and non-human resources - which again requires expanding the hierarchy - which expands the power of those who cause this process (as the newly hired people will be added below those "managers").

Quite true. I should have italicized Parkinson's Law, the book. Parkinson spends a number of short chapters discussing the expansion of hierarchies, with historical examples.

Re: Why is it taking longer and longer to fill open jobs?

#156

Post by dublinben »

spacko wrote: post #88

Maybe HR tends to complicate the process to expand its power and justify its existence. There is this "law" that proclaims this is what happens in bureaucratic organisations - hierarchies tend to be grown for that purpose.

This seems highly related to Pournelle's Iron Law of Bureaucracy.[0]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Pournelle#Iron_Law_of_Bu...

Re: Why is it taking longer and longer to fill open jobs?

#157

Post by fsckin »

Animats wrote: post #152

Here's a famous recruiting ad for "Super programmers" from Autodesk, in 1986.[1] It includes two things you seldom see today. First, there's no list of narrow technical skills: "Relevant experience is nice, but if you're as good a person as we want, you'll be able to pick it up in a week or two." And finally: "We'll pay you more than anybody else in the industry." That worked. Autodesk ended up owning the CAD industr…

It'd be awesome if AutoDesk unleashed some super programmers on their online store and subscription management portal. Both are an absolutely abismal experience.

Re: Why is it taking longer and longer to fill open jobs?

#158

Post by sopooneo »

Because it seems there are many people commenting who might know: is it heard of for a potential employee to negotiate compensation also in terms of amount of paid time off? And if so, has anyone ever heard of a US dev getting European levels of vacation? Like eight weeks?

Because that is my ideal, and I would be willing to give up a lot to get that sort of thing. I need stability, but live pretty frugally, so I would only be interested in an otherwise traditional full-time position. Any input greatly appreciated.

Re: Why is it taking longer and longer to fill open jobs?

#159

Post by myhf »

hebdo wrote: post #78
resoluteteeth wrote: post #18

I think another interpretation is that it's become easier for companies to keep jobs "open" and collecting applicants without really having to put in effort to find people. Or, to put it another way, the idea of an "open job" has become meaningless, if it was ever meaningful in the first place. As a metaphor, we can imagine many people wanting to buy apples, but not being willing to pay the 1$ the supermarket will ch…

A relevant read: Whaddaya Mean, You Can't Find Programmers? http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000050.html

It's amazing how much has changed since the time of that article. I can't remember the last time I saw cubicle walls.

Re: Why is it taking longer and longer to fill open jobs?

#160

Post by dhd415 »

sopooneo wrote: post #158

Because it seems there are many people commenting who might know: is it heard of for a potential employee to negotiate compensation also in terms of amount of paid time off? And if so, has anyone ever heard of a US dev getting European levels of vacation? Like eight weeks? Because that is my ideal, and I would be willing to give up a lot to get that sort of thing. I need stability, but live pretty frugally, so I woul…

I've heard of people negotiating 4 or 4.5-day work weeks for 80% or 90% of the position's full-time salary. In the few cases where I've seen that happen, someone in the company had prior work experience with the candidate and knew that they would be worth bringing in even on a part-time basis.
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