Why is it taking longer and longer to fill open jobs? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why is it taking longer and longer to fill open jobs?

#131

Post by walshemj » Sun, Jun 21, 2015, 5:39 PM UTC

GreenPlastic wrote: post #12

alister wrote: post #6

> What's changed over the past fifteen years is that the internet has dramatically decreased the cost of identify in an open job listing and sending in an application. The stack of resumes you need to read through in order to start scheduling interviews has just gotten longer. The easier you make it to apply for jobs, the slower the hiring process becomes. The above explanation of why it now takes employers longer to…

Posted a senior iOS dev position to Indeed, LinkedIn, Glassdoor where the company is paying 25%(maybe 40% if you include RSUs) above market here (although we don't put comp in the job listing) and only got 3 applicants in a month.

So from my perspective for job search linkedin would be a second tier site I wound't even search on glassdoor and indeed is considered where the "shit" jobs go and that is a direct quote from a director of one of the big UK job sites.

Re: Why is it taking longer and longer to fill open jobs?

#132

Post by saryant » Sun, Jun 21, 2015, 5:43 PM UTC

pluma wrote: post #100

mozumder wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The proper solution to this is to offer stock options that vest over several years to keep the employee, and to continually offer new set of options each year.

> offer stock options Outside the valley nobody cares about stock options. Even within the valley many people are aware they're a gamble at best. You're most likely not working for the next Facebook.

Depends on the company. Options in, say, Shell Oil are a completely different beast to options in a just-graduated YC company.

Re: Why is it taking longer and longer to fill open jobs?

#133

Post by hodwik » Sun, Jun 21, 2015, 5:46 PM UTC

PythonicAlpha wrote: post #86

d4nt wrote: post #65

My theory is that people are shopping around for better employers and better cultural fit, and that it's not just a question of taking the highest offer any more. That would explain why wages are not rising.

If the problem would be just employees "shopping around" that would not explain, why wages are not rising. If they would shop around, wages would also rise, even when they are only marginal interested in wages ... (show me 3 employees that are not interested in wages)

Tech wages are very inflated as is, expecting them to rise is pretty silly.

When I was looking for my current job, I forgot to even ask about wages. So maybe what they gave me in pay is "flat" from five years ago, but it's still twice what any of my friends my age are making, while they have degrees and I do not.

Re: Why is it taking longer and longer to fill open jobs?

#134

Post by walshemj » Sun, Jun 21, 2015, 5:46 PM UTC

mrspeaker wrote: post #111

arkem wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Job postings that are aiming to satisfy visa requirements are generally easy to identify. Here are some indicators: * They're usually listed in a Sunday newspaper rather than online. * They will not be posted to the company's website. * They'll require a specific education level * They'll require experience that is oddly specific

Like this one: https://twitter.com/mrspeaker/status/525650833174978560 I thought it was the most hilarious thing I'd ever seen until a co-worker on a H1-B told me what it really was.

Obviously spelling is not one of the skills required "stored proceeds" :-)

Re: Why is it taking longer and longer to fill open jobs?

#135

Post by hodwik » Sun, Jun 21, 2015, 5:50 PM UTC

thrillgore wrote: post #102

I mean, the solution is simple to fix right? Raise the wages for these positions.

It's not about wages being too small, it's about offices not being pleasant places to work.

I have never heard a programmer complain about not enough pay. They do, however, complain about incompetent bosses, not enough vacation, and having to deal with non-programmers.

Re: Why is it taking longer and longer to fill open jobs?

#136

Post by PythonicAlpha » Sun, Jun 21, 2015, 5:53 PM UTC

hodwik wrote: post #133

PythonicAlpha wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the problem would be just employees "shopping around" that would not explain, why wages are not rising. If they would shop around, wages would also rise, even when they are only marginal interested in wages ... (show me 3 employees that are not interested in wages)

Tech wages are very inflated as is, expecting them to rise is pretty silly. When I was looking for my current job, I forgot to even ask about wages. So maybe what they gave me in pay is "flat" from five years ago, but it's still twice what any of my friends my age are making, while they have degrees and I do not.

I was only reacting on the argument was made by the OP, that is not logical in my opinion.

I do not know about tech wages in the US. In Germany, the tech wages are not inflated, at least not in my opinion. The normal tech wages have risen maybe 3-5% per year the last few years in Germany (I don't call this inflated) and the years before it was even less.

In the same time, the wages for top-managers have risen maybe 10-15% per year and are since decades incredible high above the wages of "tech wages" (the difference is climbing and climbing). I call that inflated.

Your statement of course is more logical than that of the OP.

Re: Why is it taking longer and longer to fill open jobs?

#137

Post by JamesBarney » Sun, Jun 21, 2015, 6:01 PM UTC

GreenPlastic wrote: post #31

smil wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So compensation is not relevant to your point at all since you didn't list it. Or were you looking for mind readers? The low response rate makes sense in that case.

Fair enough, but the information is publicly available on glassdoor. A couple reasons why I didn't list comp: 1. I didn't want to get candidates purely motivated by the high cash comp in the area. 2. Cash comp isn't core to how the company markets itself to employees and its culture. The company prefers to sell itself on being an employee friendly place to work. Like the article hypothesizes, I thought we'd get 50-10…

This is how I see the problem.

Here are some assumptions.

1. You're ideal ios dev is working. The unemeployment rate among good ios devs is 0%.

2. He is probably getting paid above market wage.

3. He doesn't have a lot of time to research positions.

4. Most job openings are shitty because shitty job openings take longer to fill than good ones(or never get filled).

5. Your ideal ios dev doesn't have time to look up glass door salaries on every job that comes along on indeed. So they probably won't look up yours.

So how do you differentiate yourself to your would-be dev? Well you could tell them that you have an AMAZING-COOL workplace with GREAT people. Problem is even terrible companies say they have an AMAZING-COOL workplace, sometimes even more vocally then legitimately great workplaces. So whats an employer to do? Put your money where your mouth is. Tell your prospective employees that you offer above average compensation[0]. This signalsthat your workplace takes their devs seriously. It will tell them your employer hires professionals who take software seriously. And a a workplace that respects their devs, and hires great people, that IS an AMAZING-COOL workplace where I and many other devs want to work.

[0] - Use actual numbers because many employers are in denial about what the actual market rate is.

TL;DR - The only honest signal a company can give me in a job ad is compensation and from that signal I extrapolate working conditions, culture, and caliber of workers.

Re: Why is it taking longer and longer to fill open jobs?

#138

Post by reagency » Sun, Jun 21, 2015, 6:06 PM UTC

walshemj wrote: post #131

GreenPlastic wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Posted a senior iOS dev position to Indeed, LinkedIn, Glassdoor where the company is paying 25%(maybe 40% if you include RSUs) above market here (although we don't put comp in the job listing) and only got 3 applicants in a month.

So from my perspective for job search linkedin would be a second tier site I wound't even search on glassdoor and indeed is considered where the "shit" jobs go and that is a direct quote from a director of one of the big UK job sites.

A Glassdoor competitor said Glass door is bad? Unassailable authority.

Re: Why is it taking longer and longer to fill open jobs?

#139

Post by reagency » Sun, Jun 21, 2015, 6:08 PM UTC

aerique wrote: post #60

ryandrake wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone is different, but I would always take a job posting more seriously if it listed at least a salary _range_. I at least know I'm not wasting my time going thorough the whole process only to learn that the comp package is way below what I would accept. Yea, there's always Glassdoor for that, but I'm not sure how much I trust that site's data.

Exactly, I wouldn't consider a job posting that doesn't mention salary seriously either. It reeks too much of a job that wants to take advantage of you while paying peanuts.

Almost no job postings mention salary, and most jobs are filled. Certainly the hundreds of thousands of bigco job ads don't post salaries, and startups don't either. Government does.

Re: Why is it taking longer and longer to fill open jobs?

#140

Post by hodwik » Sun, Jun 21, 2015, 6:12 PM UTC

PythonicAlpha wrote: post #136

hodwik wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tech wages are very inflated as is, expecting them to rise is pretty silly. When I was looking for my current job, I forgot to even ask about wages. So maybe what they gave me in pay is "flat" from five years ago, but it's still twice what any of my friends my age are making, while they have degrees and I do not.

I was only reacting on the argument was made by the OP, that is not logical in my opinion. I do not know about tech wages in the US. In Germany, the tech wages are not inflated, at least not in my opinion. The normal tech wages have risen maybe 3-5% per year the last few years in Germany (I don't call this inflated) and the years before it was even less. In the same time, the wages for top-managers have risen maybe 1…

Developer wages in the US average around €62k, about 20 higher than in Germany, while the US has roughly 30% lower cost of living.

Also, in Germany you're at a 40% income tax rate at €43k, while in the US at €62k you're only taxed at 25%.

Sure, that 40% income tax rate gets you universal healthcare, while in the US we're paying ~6,339.71 Euros a year to insure a family of four. But I think even accounting that, wages are much higher in the US.