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Facebook Starts Its ‘Rooney Rule’ to Increase Diversity in Tech

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Re: Facebook Starts Its ‘Rooney Rule’ to Increase Diversity in Tech

#11

Post by caligastia »

Retra wrote: post #6
Nadya wrote: post #2

Can someone explain to me how these type of things aren't racist or sexist? I still don't understand how benevolent preference isn't sexist or racist. Selection should be merit based - not gonad or skin-color based. If the rule applies only to "consideration", as mentioned, then that would be admittance to not following Equal Employment Opportunity laws and they would be open to a lawsuit as it is implying they didn'…

If you want organizations to be merit-based, you need the larger social context to be merit based, so as to provide a 'background of fairness' to establish what is right or wrong for an organization. To do this, you have to take actions that drive wider social change, not simply optimize your organization. (If you optimize at the organization level, you end up taking advantage of existing social biases, which is why…

"background of fairness" - very impressive, maybe social engineering is a science now!

This is BS - in a normal society, competence rises to the top on its own accord - people naturally out of laziness defer to those who know what they are doing, regardless of race.

In the US we are living in a social engineered bubble that does not reflect reality. Take a look at the current administration, (and the several before, to be fair) - competence is not even on the radar for consideration of a job - it's political connections and race first. And we see the results in the news every day.

Re: Facebook Starts Its ‘Rooney Rule’ to Increase Diversity in Tech

#12

Post by Nadya »

Retra wrote: post #10
peterhadlaw wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't the company perform best if they didn't pay attention to the larger social context and rather simply hired solely on merit? Like I don't see how in the end hiring on anything but merit mathematically comes out better.

Of course, but that's selfish and damaging in the long term. It's a long term social investment. You could also get a better score on a test by cheating, but there's a reason you shouldn't do that, and it's not "I might get caught."

>Of course, but that's selfish and damaging in the long term.

[Citation Needed]

Re: Facebook Starts Its ‘Rooney Rule’ to Increase Diversity in Tech

#13

Post by _pius »

Nadya wrote: post #7
_pius wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Rooney Rule isn't a preference. It's a way to ensure that classes of applicants who have been systematically excluded from consideration are being considered at some reasonable rate. It does nothing to make a hiring process any less merit-based; quite the opposite, in fact.

>systematically excluded from consideration are being considered at some reasonable rate As mentioned, this is illegal per EEO, take it up with the courts. Otherwise they weren't being systematically ignored for consideration.

As mentioned, this is illegal per EEO, take it up with the courts.

No. The NFL has been using the Rooney Rule for quite some time.

Otherwise they weren't being systematically ignored for consideration.

You keep using EEO in your argument. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Re: Facebook Starts Its ‘Rooney Rule’ to Increase Diversity in Tech

#14

Post by Nadya »

_pius wrote: post #13
Nadya wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>systematically excluded from consideration are being considered at some reasonable rate As mentioned, this is illegal per EEO, take it up with the courts. Otherwise they weren't being systematically ignored for consideration.

As mentioned, this is illegal per EEO, take it up with the courts. No. The NFL has been using the Rooney Rule for quite some time. Otherwise they weren't being systematically ignored for consideration. You keep using EEO in your argument. I do not think it means what you think it means.

>No. The NFL has been using the Rooney Rule for quite some time.

Doesn't invalidate my point. Also funny that it is largely only applied to the primarily white coaches and not the primarily black players. But I'd be racist for pointing that out, wouldn't I?

>Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, as amended, protects applicants and employees from discrimination in hiring

I don't even need to quote EEO past that to prove my point. If you are being systematically ignored for consideration based on the above criteria of race or sex, they are in violation of Title VII. Otherwise - you aren't being discriminated against.

Re: Facebook Starts Its ‘Rooney Rule’ to Increase Diversity in Tech

#15

Post by _pius »

Nadya wrote: post #14
_pius wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As mentioned, this is illegal per EEO, take it up with the courts. No. The NFL has been using the Rooney Rule for quite some time. Otherwise they weren't being systematically ignored for consideration. You keep using EEO in your argument. I do not think it means what you think it means.

>No. The NFL has been using the Rooney Rule for quite some time. Doesn't invalidate my point. Also funny that it is largely only applied to the primarily white coaches and not the primarily black players. But I'd be racist for pointing that out, wouldn't I? >Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, as amended, protects applicants and employees from discrimination in hiring I don't even need to quote EEO past that t…

But I'd be racist for pointing that out, wouldn't I?

Hey, you said it, not me.

Re: Facebook Starts Its ‘Rooney Rule’ to Increase Diversity in Tech

#16

Post by Nadya »

_pius wrote: post #15
Nadya wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>No. The NFL has been using the Rooney Rule for quite some time. Doesn't invalidate my point. Also funny that it is largely only applied to the primarily white coaches and not the primarily black players. But I'd be racist for pointing that out, wouldn't I? >Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, as amended, protects applicants and employees from discrimination in hiring I don't even need to quote EEO past that t…

But I'd be racist for pointing that out, wouldn't I? Hey, you said it, not me.

So no further correction on my apparent misunderstanding of EEO and the malevolent racism that is the Rooney Rule?

I'm willing to admit I'm wrong if you can show how discriminating against hiring people based on their race or sex isn't discriminating against hiring people based on their race or sex - or how the Rooney Rule, which encourages discriminating in favor of hiring people based on their race or sex in this context, is not racist or sexist.

I have no qualms with being racist in the context of wanting to see other minority groups and whites (who, in this context, are a minority group) in a field primarily dominated by blacks. For the same reason other people have no qualm with being racist and wanting more minority groups in primarily white fields. I just want them to be aware that they are being racist.

Re: Facebook Starts Its ‘Rooney Rule’ to Increase Diversity in Tech

#17

Post by strangecasts »

Nadya wrote: post #7
_pius wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Rooney Rule isn't a preference. It's a way to ensure that classes of applicants who have been systematically excluded from consideration are being considered at some reasonable rate. It does nothing to make a hiring process any less merit-based; quite the opposite, in fact.

>systematically excluded from consideration are being considered at some reasonable rate As mentioned, this is illegal per EEO, take it up with the courts. Otherwise they weren't being systematically ignored for consideration.

You're assuming that the people who are overlooked are somehow instantly able to tell why they've been passed up, and even then have the time and resources to go to court.

Re: Facebook Starts Its ‘Rooney Rule’ to Increase Diversity in Tech

#18

Post by Nadya »

strangecasts wrote: post #17
Nadya wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>systematically excluded from consideration are being considered at some reasonable rate As mentioned, this is illegal per EEO, take it up with the courts. Otherwise they weren't being systematically ignored for consideration.

You're assuming that the people who are overlooked are somehow instantly able to tell why they've been passed up, and even then have the time and resources to go to court.

Proving that you were discriminated against is notoriously difficult. An exception to that is when the offending party is essentially admitting guilt in their effort to reform.

Implementation of the Rooney Rule is an admission to guilt of failing to comply with EEO. It's meant, explicitly, to combat against racial discrimination.

That's the nature behind the Rooney Rule. It asks the hiring managers/interviewers to reflect upon their interviewee's and recognize that they may have an inherent bias against hiring a marginalized group, reflect upon their selections, and do their best not to hire based on race (and in this implementation: sex).

In practice it's more like adding a quota or you may be accused of not following the rule. But I digress and don't want to argue into too far into that territory, as it becomes speculation of human motives.

To quickly sum up my thoughts on why it is essentially a quota in practice: If you do not hire more marginalized groups, you'll be accused of not honoring the Rooney Rule.

In order to comply with the unofficial Rooney Rule and make your manager happy, "You're increasing diversity! Good job!", you simply make sure to hire 1-2 marginalized people out of every 10 you hire.

But of course the "in good faith" argument applies and you can go back and forward bickering over whether they were hired in as a quota or "in good faith".

Re: Facebook Starts Its ‘Rooney Rule’ to Increase Diversity in Tech

#19

Post by Retra »

caligastia wrote: post #11
Retra wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want organizations to be merit-based, you need the larger social context to be merit based, so as to provide a 'background of fairness' to establish what is right or wrong for an organization. To do this, you have to take actions that drive wider social change, not simply optimize your organization. (If you optimize at the organization level, you end up taking advantage of existing social biases, which is why…

"background of fairness" - very impressive, maybe social engineering is a science now! This is BS - in a normal society, competence rises to the top on its own accord - people naturally out of laziness defer to those who know what they are doing, regardless of race. In the US we are living in a social engineered bubble that does not reflect reality. Take a look at the current administration, (and the several before,…

You're not saying anything. Obviously politics is a matter of politics, the concept of 'merit' there is corrupt beyond belief. And it's precisely because people don't have the means to think properly about these kinds of issues.

Re: Facebook Starts Its ‘Rooney Rule’ to Increase Diversity in Tech

#20

Post by Retra »

Nadya wrote: post #12
Retra wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, but that's selfish and damaging in the long term. It's a long term social investment. You could also get a better score on a test by cheating, but there's a reason you shouldn't do that, and it's not "I might get caught."

>Of course, but that's selfish and damaging in the long term. [Citation Needed]

[Funding required]
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