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My Position On The Disney Layoffs

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Re: My Position On The Disney Layoffs

#121

Post by ta2938489 »

matwood wrote: post #115
ta2938489 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should you care? Possibly because you realize that undercutting your countrymen, the people you have to live with now regardless of whether they are employed or not, is something that makes your actual community now a worse place. Call it self interest, but I want to live in a society that is functional and with neighbors that are happy. The alternative is to retreat further and further into an affluent bubble. T…

As soon as someone immigrates and becomes a citizen they are also your fellow countrymen. Where the next huge industry starts, wherever that happens to be, will define the next super power. Having the US be attractive for foreigners to immigrate to and become citizens raises the odds the US will be that place. I don't want access to the Chinese or Indian stock markets, I want the best of their citizens to want to imm…

By that argument, it seems like you would be in favor of being extremely selective about who becomes your next fellow countryman. If he turns out to be a liability, you're just that little bit further away from being the next superpower. He may well not, but what if he does?

Could there be social welfare costs? Rising income inequality? Unemployment of current citizens?

If you want to frame the problem in economic terms, a frank discussion of the risks is mandatory. Right now we usually talk about it like a ca. 2008 banker might have talked about naked credit default swaps. Sure, there might be a risk. But think of how much money we can make!

Re: My Position On The Disney Layoffs

#122

Post by bayesianhorse »

bruceb wrote: post #118
bayesianhorse wrote: post #117

Am I the only one that has any problem with the idea that citizens of a particular country feel more entitled to well paying jobs than comparably capable foreigners? I can understand the feeling, I just can't justify it by reason. It feels like these workers have more of a problem with the general low standards of worker's rights and labor protections than with H1B visa quotas...

Because the citizens and those that came before them have the history of the building up the country that has fostered a good standard of living, rights, environmental standards, etc. It is unsurprising they feel they are more entitled to the benefits than those outside the country who did not. It is a complex situation but that is the general gist.

So they have the right to a good life because they always had a good life?

I can understand that such thinking is convenient, but especially those who are afraid of outsourcing haven't done that much "building" at all. And how come that in virtually any other regard competition and free enterprise is enshrined, even to the detriment of poor people and low income workers, but not when origin is concerned?

For me this entitlement does not follow immediately from some kind of ancestral rights.

Re: My Position On The Disney Layoffs

#123

Post by Frondo »

fche wrote: post #101
Frondo wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Because we (as in "we the people") decide it is so? Remember, the government, and all its laws, derives its power from us, not the other way 'round.

... but "we" haven't given government the power to micromanage every aspect of our lives.

A minimum wage law isn't micromanagement of our lives.

Re: My Position On The Disney Layoffs

#124

Post by stephen-mw »

I think the H1B program is great when it works, and I've seen it function because I've worked with some amazing and talented workers from countries such as India, Spain, France, etc. I really felt like we nabbed the best people from those countries. For these engineers, the US should be stapling green cards to the backs of their pay checks.

The problem here is that this group of workers is clearly being hired only because they provide a steep discount to local talent. This has nothing to do with skill, and in fact usually the engineers who take these positions are low-skilled. Think about it, who else would take a steep pay cut, work unreasonable hours, and take on a supervisor who threatens deportation on them?

For every H1B we hire in this category we make it harder to bring and keep a skilled worker. They don't fit the mould of disposable and cheap labor, so they don't get sponsorship. They refuse to take a pay cut just because they're a foreigner, and rightly so.

Re: My Position On The Disney Layoffs

#125

Post by Veratyr »

iktl wrote: post #114
Veratyr wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As another non-citizen I'll add that I'm a 'full time' employee (in an "at will" state) and not on a contract. My visa expires 2 years from issuance but can be renewed (from an embassy outside the US). Like the H1B, I cannot remain in the US if I lose my employment but also like the H1B I can transfer my visa to a new employer. I'm on a country specific visa though so my experience may differ from others. Notably, my…

Are you on an E-3 too? Your scenario sounds identical to mine.

Yup.

Re: My Position On The Disney Layoffs

#126

Post by suprgeek »

prostoalex wrote: post #82
suprgeek wrote: post #68

What Disney has done is certainly reprehensible but fully legal (given the "contractor" loophole in the H1-B program). However the backlash is focusing on the "them foreigners taking our Jobs" aspect a bit too much. What should be troubling is the fact that someone in the Executive Suite contracted out important IT functions (such as these jobs were I am assuming). If the CIO/CTO etc are perfectly wiling to disrupt c…

Disney is not an IT company, and IT is not their core competency. Why shouldn't they outsource it like any other business function?

>>Disney is not an IT company, and IT is not their core competency

Given the crucial role IT plays in nearly all Disney enterprises (TV, Movies, theme parks, etc) they better make IT one of their core competencies.

Re: My Position On The Disney Layoffs

#127

Post by makeitsuckless »

shas3 wrote: post #107
makeitsuckless wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any immigration policy short of opening the borders completely is "protectionist". Just waving the word "protectionism" around is a non-statement that doesn't say anything about what may or may not be wrong wit the current policy.

> Any immigration policy short of opening the borders completely is "protectionist". How so? The idea of comparative advantage is that one country has a market, another, the means to provide for that market and you facilitate this 'trade'. India, China, pretty much most countries have plenty of top notch talent that cannot be satiated by opportunities within their own countries. These are not necessarily geniuses, bu…

Non-protectionist would be free traffic across borders like within the EU. Any immigration policy is a form of protectionism.

BTW, I find your naive notion of the US as the promised land rather unsettling. Personally, I don't know anybody who would want to immigrate to the US, and especially not for the archaic, exploitative work culture.

Yes, this is matter of perspective. But you seem to be lacking any other perspective than US good, everywhere else bad. Which is probably one of the reasons why it's so easy to exploit immigrant knowledge workers in the US.

Re: My Position On The Disney Layoffs

#129

Post by kamaal »

jobu wrote: post #62

This is a great line: "If you view your staff as a liability, it's more likely a leadership problem." If a company's employees are not an asset, then leadership hasn't done it's job of either weeding out the bad people or spending enough money to attract and grow good people.

In the same vein of argument, if you don't view your staff as liability or replaceable, you are likely running a very risky business.

Re: My Position On The Disney Layoffs

#130

Post by prostoalex »

suprgeek wrote: post #126
prostoalex wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disney is not an IT company, and IT is not their core competency. Why shouldn't they outsource it like any other business function?

>>Disney is not an IT company, and IT is not their core competency Given the crucial role IT plays in nearly all Disney enterprises (TV, Movies, theme parks, etc) they better make IT one of their core competencies.

The entity in question is the theme parks operator, not all IT departments across all Disney entities.

Time will tell if Six Flags, Universal or SeaWorld would lock in significant advantages by having access to higher quality IT, while Disneyland/Disneyworld ticket sales would decline due to inferior IT.

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