My Position On The Disney Layoffs • Hacker News Board

Re: My Position On The Disney Layoffs

#111

Post by yourapostasy » Wed, Jun 17, 2015, 5:30 PM UTC

dspillett wrote: post #51

kogus wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a pretty cynical attitude. It's definitely possible to work for a for-profit company and still care personally about the success of whatever they are doing. You don't have a moral obligation to bend over backwards for a company, but it's ok to be committed for reasons other than a paycheck.

> It's definitely possible to work for a for-profit company and still care personally It is certainly possible, and usually very much appreciated (sometimes even rewarded) in the short term. Just don't expect it to make much difference to how you are treated over the longer term. The company won't forget that you are an employee and you shouldn't either. Heck, a company with shareholders is practically legally oblige…

> Heck, a company with shareholders is practically legally obliged to...

You are spreading the myth of a US (and most nations, for that matter) legal obligation (the term of art is "fiduciary duty") of profit maximization to shareholders. Please read the following.

http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/8146/are-u-s-com...

http://corpgov.law.harvard.edu/2012/06/26/the-shareholder-va...

https://hbr.org/2010/04/the-myth-of-shareholder-capitalism

If you are an attorney, then in the past somewhere on Harvard Law's site I found an exhaustively-written piece that gives specific case law citations I could cross-reference from Lexis-Nexis. The bar to clear to prove fiduciary malfeasance in corporate governance is very high, and the latitude granted to company management very broad; shareholders can enforce a fiduciary preference through shareholder activism and throw out management, but the US judiciary has steadfastly refused to lightly step into the management-shareholder relationship in this regard.

This blog post delves into the follow-on questions more in the vein of corporate social responsibility once you acknowledge the legal reality.

http://www.robertstavinsblog.org/2009/05/12/straight-talk-ab...

Re: My Position On The Disney Layoffs

#112

Post by djb_hackernews » Wed, Jun 17, 2015, 5:33 PM UTC

exelius wrote: post #37

ThePhysicist wrote: post #7

"I'm sharing news about it because this experience has taught me the H-1b Visa program needs to change to protect others in the future." It's surprising to me that Disney was able to replace its local workforce by foreigners via H-1b visas, since I always thought that companies making use of this type of visa were required to prove that they would not be able to find an employee with the required qualifications in th…

I believe the author is simply mistaken that H1-Bs are the problem. H1-Bs are limited enough that they can't be responsible for the volume of outsourcing. They also carry salary parity requirements, and while H1-B holders rarely actually make market salary, the savings still aren't enough to prompt a wave of outsourcing. There was a problem at one time with H1-Bs, but the H1-B lottery has become so competitive that i…

> The majority of H1-B recipients these days are foreign nationals who attended American universities, often with masters degrees. Those are the kinds of foreign nationals we want participating in the US economy.

most smart companies that use the H1-B visa program only hire those with masters degrees. This does 2 things:

- They can first bring them on as "interns" under the F1 visa, which can be extended quite a bit. They are paid peanuts while the firms weed out the absolute duds.

- This avoids the requirements on firms for extra reporting if a certain percentage of their staff are H1-B don't have masters degrees.

This creates a nice little loophole where smaller colleges have massive massive STEM programs with an insane majority being foreign students. The students get their foot in the door to play the game and the colleges get paid.

Take UT Dallas for example: http://ecs.utdallas.edu/academics/assessment-docs/2014/2014%...

The CS Masters program is bigger than the CS undergrad program, only 4% of graduating CS undergrads are international, where as 93% of FT CS Masters students are international. That should be odd to anyone.

Re: My Position On The Disney Layoffs

#113

Post by matwood » Wed, Jun 17, 2015, 5:35 PM UTC

theklub wrote: post #30

matwood wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We do exist in a global economy and you must therefore compete globally. I completely agree, but that's not what the H1-B visa program does. It allows companies to lock in immigrant workers at a lower rate and little to no job mobility. From a companies standpoint it is obviously what they want - pay less, and job lock in! The fix for the H1-B is true immigration reform. We need to make it easy for people to come t…

Why do we need to make it easy for people to come take our jobs? Why would we do that?

Who is _us_? As soon as someone immigrates here and becomes a citizen they are us. Way more dangerous than losing your job today is losing the next silicon valley because we refuse to let people who want to come here, work, and become citizens actually come here, work and become citizens.

Re: My Position On The Disney Layoffs

#114

Post by iktl » Wed, Jun 17, 2015, 5:40 PM UTC

Veratyr wrote: post #97

pgrote wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>And I say this as a non-citizen working in the US. If you don't mind answering a question I've had about this process for a while, it'd be great. Does your contract end at some point? Do you have options to stay in the US employed by another company?

As another non-citizen I'll add that I'm a 'full time' employee (in an "at will" state) and not on a contract. My visa expires 2 years from issuance but can be renewed (from an embassy outside the US). Like the H1B, I cannot remain in the US if I lose my employment but also like the H1B I can transfer my visa to a new employer. I'm on a country specific visa though so my experience may differ from others. Notably, my…

Are you on an E-3 too? Your scenario sounds identical to mine.

Re: My Position On The Disney Layoffs

#115

Post by matwood » Wed, Jun 17, 2015, 5:41 PM UTC

ta2938489 wrote: post #76

kalkin wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who's "us"? I don't know you, and I have friends who aren't Americans who have been prevented by immigration policy from taking jobs here that I know they'd have been great at. Why should I care more about you keeping your job--just because we were born in the same politically defined geographic area? But if you need a self-interested explanation: because you don't want to be competing with people who have artificial…

Why should you care? Possibly because you realize that undercutting your countrymen, the people you have to live with now regardless of whether they are employed or not, is something that makes your actual community now a worse place. Call it self interest, but I want to live in a society that is functional and with neighbors that are happy. The alternative is to retreat further and further into an affluent bubble. T…

As soon as someone immigrates and becomes a citizen they are also your fellow countrymen.

Where the next huge industry starts, wherever that happens to be, will define the next super power. Having the US be attractive for foreigners to immigrate to and become citizens raises the odds the US will be that place. I don't want access to the Chinese or Indian stock markets, I want the best of their citizens to want to immigrate to the US and start companies here because the US is the best place for company formation (not arguing either way atm, just saying what I want). This type of environment raises all boats.

Instead we teach other countries best, send them home, and yield few of the benefits as they go on to start companies.

Re: My Position On The Disney Layoffs

#116

Post by ta2938489 » Wed, Jun 17, 2015, 5:44 PM UTC

bharath28 wrote: post #94

ta2938489 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should you care? Possibly because you realize that undercutting your countrymen, the people you have to live with now regardless of whether they are employed or not, is something that makes your actual community now a worse place. Call it self interest, but I want to live in a society that is functional and with neighbors that are happy. The alternative is to retreat further and further into an affluent bubble. T…

"Community" is loose term - choosing to limit the boundaries to "your country" is arbitrary. There is an argument to be made that having the people best suited for a job work on it will improve long term economic viability of the product itself and in turn availability of the product to the "community". There is also the risk of losing the best talent to an entity outside this arbitrary definition of community and th…

Borders are another way of saying "local control". If, all things being equal, you would rather that political decisions happen closer to you than further away, then you are in favor of (arbitrary) borders.

I think it's an error to view concepts such as "community" and "your country" as quaint abstractions while putting full faith in "the product" and "economic viability". Economic arguments are important, but not comprehensive to the human experience. All things being equal, I'd rather live in a decent place with a decent economy, than a terrible place with great economy, or the reverse.

So I am skeptical of arguments that demand economic optimality over all other competing concerns such as culture, "community", happiness, etc. Perhaps economic optimality has diminishing marginal returns?

Re: My Position On The Disney Layoffs

#117

Post by bayesianhorse » Wed, Jun 17, 2015, 5:47 PM UTC

Am I the only one that has any problem with the idea that citizens of a particular country feel more entitled to well paying jobs than comparably capable foreigners?

I can understand the feeling, I just can't justify it by reason.

It feels like these workers have more of a problem with the general low standards of worker's rights and labor protections than with H1B visa quotas...

Re: My Position On The Disney Layoffs

#118

Post by bruceb » Wed, Jun 17, 2015, 5:56 PM UTC

bayesianhorse wrote: post #117

Am I the only one that has any problem with the idea that citizens of a particular country feel more entitled to well paying jobs than comparably capable foreigners? I can understand the feeling, I just can't justify it by reason. It feels like these workers have more of a problem with the general low standards of worker's rights and labor protections than with H1B visa quotas...

Because the citizens and those that came before them have the history of the building up the country that has fostered a good standard of living, rights, environmental standards, etc.

It is unsurprising they feel they are more entitled to the benefits than those outside the country who did not. It is a complex situation but that is the general gist.

Re: My Position On The Disney Layoffs

#119

Post by Simulacra » Wed, Jun 17, 2015, 5:57 PM UTC

Most has echoed my thoughts on this, but I wanted to jump in to offer this article from Cheat Sheet. I think it sums up quite well the view of modern corporations towards their employees. The main point being: If a corporation can increase their profits by screwing you, then they are more likely than not to do just that.

"Your Employer Is Not Your Friend, and Young People Know It" By Nikelle Snader, www.cheatsheet.comView OriginalMay 31st, 2015

http://www.cheatsheet.com/business/your-employer-isnt-your-f...

Re: My Position On The Disney Layoffs

#120

Post by ixtli » Wed, Jun 17, 2015, 6:02 PM UTC

KeithBarrett wrote: post #72

ixtli wrote: post #25

I wonder why he's disabled sharing of the post.

I usually do that when I share something sensitive or extremely personal, at least for the first day I share it. It forces the conversation with me.

Oh I see. That's an interesting point. I only ask because when I copied the link into a new post I realized it was the only time I'd ever done that in years of using G+. In any case, as someone who's never really worked in a very large organization this post confirmed some of my previous suppositions about why I'd probably never be happy in one :/