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Journey: A refugee's odyssey from Syria to Sweden

theguardian.com

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Re: Journey: A refugee's odyssey from Syria to Sweden

#31

Post by bayesianhorse »

Conjoiner wrote: post #11
bayesianhorse wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turns out, Islam tends to have virtually no influence on European culture. All this talk about "dilution" is ridiculous. If at all, Muslim immigrants feel diluted. And I am not denying that European societies have disproportionately many problems with Muslim immigrants. But we can't do anything about it without violating what we believe is a just society: No human should be punished for crimes another human committed…

Causing the rape statistics to shoot through the roof is a bit of an impact.

So Islam commands them have to rape Western woman? Most Muslim scholars would disagree.

I actually agree that Muslim immigrants are more prone to commit this kind of crime. That doesn't mean it's an Islam thing. It also doesn't mean innocent Muslims can be treated any worse because some of them commit crimes. Trying to solve this problem by blaming their religion is not going to lead anywhere good.

Re: Journey: A refugee's odyssey from Syria to Sweden

#32

Post by DanBC »

lllllll wrote: post #13
bayesianhorse wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turns out, Islam tends to have virtually no influence on European culture. All this talk about "dilution" is ridiculous. If at all, Muslim immigrants feel diluted. And I am not denying that European societies have disproportionately many problems with Muslim immigrants. But we can't do anything about it without violating what we believe is a just society: No human should be punished for crimes another human committed…

>> Turns out, Islam tends to have virtually no influence on European culture. All this talk about "dilution" is ridiculous Define "no influence". If you walk around many European cities you see areas where the stores are 90% Döner/Kebab/Pakistani. I mean, that seems to me like some influence. The fact that such a huge number of people with Muslim background relocate to an area, is clearly a cause for the rise in Musl…

> Define "no influence". If you walk around many European cities you see areas where the stores are 90% Döner/Kebab/Pakistani.

So in England there are the traditional corner shops that sell some food (mostly not fresh), confectionary, alcohol and soft drinks, newspapers, and cigarettes. (And, in the past, porn.)

It's pretty hard to find the Islamic influence of those shops.

Re: Journey: A refugee's odyssey from Syria to Sweden

#33

Post by bayesianhorse »

trhway wrote: post #7
bayesianhorse wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turns out, Islam tends to have virtually no influence on European culture. All this talk about "dilution" is ridiculous. If at all, Muslim immigrants feel diluted. And I am not denying that European societies have disproportionately many problems with Muslim immigrants. But we can't do anything about it without violating what we believe is a just society: No human should be punished for crimes another human committed…

>No human should be punished for crimes another human committed. what about the crimes committed with approval, in the name and by the power vested by the other humans? When these other humans shield and harbor the committer of the crime?

Aiding and abetting terrorists can be and is punished.

Sympathy for IS or similar groups/countries is a whole different story. As long as they are at best voicing their support, or not even that, it's really difficult and contra-productive to prosecute.

If you want to morally condemn every Muslim for sympathizing with IS, you should keep in mind that most people fighting them are Muslim. You also should keep in mind that most Muslims don't sympathize with these kind of crimes or terrorism in general....

Re: Journey: A refugee's odyssey from Syria to Sweden

#34

Post by bayesianhorse »

throwaway_coz wrote: post #15
bayesianhorse wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turns out, Islam tends to have virtually no influence on European culture. All this talk about "dilution" is ridiculous. If at all, Muslim immigrants feel diluted. And I am not denying that European societies have disproportionately many problems with Muslim immigrants. But we can't do anything about it without violating what we believe is a just society: No human should be punished for crimes another human committed…

Ah, another convenient use of "turns out". Fortunately, we are on hackernews so enough people are probably familiar with this very useful turn of phrase[0]. Anyway, back to the topic. It turns out[0] muslim immigrants from troubled regions import their troubles. No, for sure 100%(choose a number) of them aren't the sort that shouts for sharia law, but hey you are going to be importing those. Then what happens? It sta…

Well, if you voice small-minded arguments, you do run a risk of being called out as small-minded. There is this strange belief among self-styled "immigration critics" that the fact that they have a minority opinion, is somehow proof of an unfair conversation.

Bad news: You will always be judged by the things you say and the value system that is behind these things. Deal with it!

I don't see evidence of Muslims changing European cultures in any significant way. Most don't even seem to try. Even the more religious ones seem to be content with being allowed to go to a mosque every once in a while...

Re: Journey: A refugee's odyssey from Syria to Sweden

#35

Post by throwaway_coz »

bayesianhorse wrote: post #34
throwaway_coz wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, another convenient use of "turns out". Fortunately, we are on hackernews so enough people are probably familiar with this very useful turn of phrase[0]. Anyway, back to the topic. It turns out[0] muslim immigrants from troubled regions import their troubles. No, for sure 100%(choose a number) of them aren't the sort that shouts for sharia law, but hey you are going to be importing those. Then what happens? It sta…

Well, if you voice small-minded arguments, you do run a risk of being called out as small-minded. There is this strange belief among self-styled "immigration critics" that the fact that they have a minority opinion, is somehow proof of an unfair conversation. Bad news: You will always be judged by the things you say and the value system that is behind these things. Deal with it! I don't see evidence of Muslims changi…

Maybe it's something you should think about that the first attack you can think of is an ad hominem one?

I am not bemoaning having a minority opinion, rather the inevitable personal attacks that follow, yours being a benign but still pertinent example.

And I'm not an immigration critic: I am totally in support of allowing immigration to the people who help the country. And, before you assume, that doesn't mean they have to be white or european. Note also that "help the country" can't just be defined by the usual hand-wavy bs of "diversity helps everyone" because you might as well say magic/underpant gnomes.

Where do you live in Europe or US that you don't see these effects?

Re: Journey: A refugee's odyssey from Syria to Sweden

#36

Post by lllllll »

jpatokal wrote: post #27
lllllll wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Life in these camps is not especially good compared to asylum in Western countries That's exactly one of my concerns here. Why doesn't for example Jordan just let them assimilate in their society, as fellow Arabs, and instead it just keeps them in camps? Of course not just Jordan, but also other more resourceful Arab/Muslim (mostly Sunni Muslim) countries such as UAE, Qatar, etc. Wouldn't it be easier for these al…

You're picking on the wrong country here: Jordan is the only country in the Middle East that has pretty much entirely naturalized its Palestinian refugees, who (depending on where you draw the line) make up over half the population. The vast majority of the people living in refugee camps are Jordanian citizens, and the "camps" have long since turned into permanent (if often crappy) housing. As for why the rest don't,…

That's true, though I was talking about Syrian refugees.

I picked Jordan because it's just a neighbouring Arab country, plus mostly Sunni Muslim, just like Syria, and unlike Lebanon. And of course the Palestinian refugee issue is another topic entirely.

Re: Journey: A refugee's odyssey from Syria to Sweden

#37

Post by lllllll »

bayesianhorse wrote: post #29
lllllll wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Turns out, Islam tends to have virtually no influence on European culture. All this talk about "dilution" is ridiculous Define "no influence". If you walk around many European cities you see areas where the stores are 90% Döner/Kebab/Pakistani. I mean, that seems to me like some influence. The fact that such a huge number of people with Muslim background relocate to an area, is clearly a cause for the rise in Musl…

For me, opening ethnically themed restaurants and food joints does not count as "influence of islam". At best it is an economic contribution of people who happen to be muslim. Mosques are very underrepresented, considering the number of muslim, and they have to fight for every single one. Walking on the street is no influence on Culture. Even a fully cloaked woman does not hinder my sense of European culture. They do…

IMO a culture is not just a set of protocols or rules written down by some chronist/sociologist. To me culture is more about how people live in a certain place, their routines, their customs.

Again, I'm not particularly talking about Muslim population, but since you continue with them, I will do the same :) (I guess it's an easy example since they are really a big community all around EU)

Now take any East London borough with a high % of Muslim. If you compare it with how it was let's say in the 80's you will probably see several differences in: the language most people talk to each other in, the way kids are educated at home, the way people interact with their local store owners, the food people eat, dress codes, etc.

If a person from a distant remote place visits that same borough in the 80's and today he will see two culturally different places. That's because the inhabitants of the place, make the culture. That's my view!

This reply is just intended to challenge your view that big numbers of immigrants has no influence on the culture of a country/city/place/population. I'm not implying that borough was better in the 80's than now!

>>Mosques are very underrepresented, considering the number of muslim, and they have to fight for every single one.

I really don't know where you draw the "fair representation" line. E.g. Greater London has 650k Muslims, and around 411 mosques. That's roughly 1400 Muslims/mosque. What would be a fair representation in your opinion? In contrast there are 450k Hindus in Greater London, and I couldn't find the number of temples in any source, but I'd guess it's around a few tens. Maybe this is an unfair comparison since a temple is much more of a requirement for Muslims than for Hindus, I really don't know that.

>> They don't make anyone else follow their rules, in any case.

They raise their kids with "their" rules, which is not even theirs, it's basically dictated by some kind of dogma. These kids will be the future generation of that place.

Re: Journey: A refugee's odyssey from Syria to Sweden

#38

Post by lllllll »

DanBC wrote: post #32
lllllll wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Turns out, Islam tends to have virtually no influence on European culture. All this talk about "dilution" is ridiculous Define "no influence". If you walk around many European cities you see areas where the stores are 90% Döner/Kebab/Pakistani. I mean, that seems to me like some influence. The fact that such a huge number of people with Muslim background relocate to an area, is clearly a cause for the rise in Musl…

> Define "no influence". If you walk around many European cities you see areas where the stores are 90% Döner/Kebab/Pakistani. So in England there are the traditional corner shops that sell some food (mostly not fresh), confectionary, alcohol and soft drinks, newspapers, and cigarettes. (And, in the past, porn.) It's pretty hard to find the Islamic influence of those shops.

I replied to @bayesianhorse about this similar topic, above. :)

Re: Journey: A refugee's odyssey from Syria to Sweden

#39

Post by bayesianhorse »

lllllll wrote: post #37
bayesianhorse wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me, opening ethnically themed restaurants and food joints does not count as "influence of islam". At best it is an economic contribution of people who happen to be muslim. Mosques are very underrepresented, considering the number of muslim, and they have to fight for every single one. Walking on the street is no influence on Culture. Even a fully cloaked woman does not hinder my sense of European culture. They do…

IMO a culture is not just a set of protocols or rules written down by some chronist/sociologist. To me culture is more about how people live in a certain place, their routines, their customs. Again, I'm not particularly talking about Muslim population, but since you continue with them, I will do the same :) (I guess it's an easy example since they are really a big community all around EU) Now take any East London bor…

My statement was that "Islam" has virtually no influence on Europe culture. First of all, that doesn't include everything a Muslim does, for me, Islam is a religion with values and rules.

The mere existence of Muslims following their own cultures in Europe does not constitute an influence in its own. Not even when they interact with other Europeans. Influence on European Culture would mean that Europeans change to adapt to Islamic beliefs. Which they largely don't, except sometimes in very negative ways.

You probably overestimate population trends... Yes, the Muslim population will increase, but not without bounds and much less than some people seem to believe...

Re: Journey: A refugee's odyssey from Syria to Sweden

#40

Post by bayesianhorse »

throwaway_coz wrote: post #35
bayesianhorse wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if you voice small-minded arguments, you do run a risk of being called out as small-minded. There is this strange belief among self-styled "immigration critics" that the fact that they have a minority opinion, is somehow proof of an unfair conversation. Bad news: You will always be judged by the things you say and the value system that is behind these things. Deal with it! I don't see evidence of Muslims changi…

Maybe it's something you should think about that the first attack you can think of is an ad hominem one? I am not bemoaning having a minority opinion, rather the inevitable personal attacks that follow, yours being a benign but still pertinent example. And I'm not an immigration critic: I am totally in support of allowing immigration to the people who help the country. And, before you assume, that doesn't mean they h…

If you believe you have a right to throw Muslims out of Europe, which is the only way to stop increasing Muslim populations in Europe (short of genocide), then that is only possible by believing in racist assumptions (often disguised by calling them "facts").

Under democratic values, everyone is the same before the law. Therefore there have to be serious reasons to prosecute, hunt down, imprison and deport someone (and en passant destroying his livelihood, potentially his family, and causing misery and death). You essentially say that Muslims are in general not "useful", so they shouldn't have this protection.

First of all, this is deeply anti-democratic and anti-freedom. But secondly, in this argumentation there is almost always a tendency to attach negative value to certain ethnicities. To deny human rights to an ethnically distinct group means to devalue them as human beings, and this is racism.

And please don't say you don't want to get rid of Muslims... If that were really true, why are you complaining about them?

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